Restoring a 371.513 Full Lume Formula One +part numbers/specs

He we go again with another budget resto and some hopefully useful info !
At the end of the post I'll list some part numbers and sizes etc which should prove useful to anyone treading the same path in the future.

As usual we start with the before pic....
So, this was picked up pretty cheaply for £55 GBP after my slightly cheeky best offer was accepted.
The watch didn't run and the listing stated that the seller hadn't removed the caseback. I doubted this somewhat as a case opener could be seen in the background of one of the photo's.. 🤣


So with the watch in hand I could begin to see what i'd got myself into..
The dial wasn't too bad,some dark areas around the centre and the right side edge.the hands needed reluming too.
The crystal was chipped, scratched and installed at an angle akin to a nursery ski slope..🤪
It needed a better bezel and it needed to run of course.

This is where I discovered that despite the case opener in the sellers photo's he definitely hadn't opened the back. In fact I think he probably broke his case opener trying..
I reckon Arnie fitted the caseback and King Kong gave it a tweak for good measure. I could not move it so I had to get creative. As I've said before,most of my gear is elsewhere but with the aid of two blocks of softwood and a large G clamp I got the case securely clamped up. With my biggest case opener and some pretty immense torque it finally moved.... My reward for all that effort was to see a freshly blown battery with a big blob of acid sitting on top of it and sooty black residue all over the movement,ahh well this is what I do ..🙄
I neglected to take any photos at this stage but here is the circuit once I removed it and cleaned a little residue off. There isn't actually any real corrosion and the sooty residue comes off reasonably easily.
The circuit is functional but it's going to be time consuming to clean and this residue is all over the movement too,that is going to have to be stripped and put through the ultrasonic.At some point I will do that and keep it as a spare movement,in the interests of getting on with the repair I elected to fit a spare ETA 555.412 which I know to be good.
These movements use the same stem removal procedure as the larger 955.112. Any stem position is fine, but don't press the button too far down.
Dial attachment is also via the swing U clips,just the same as it's larger brother.


Here is the first look at the dial out of the case.
Not too bad,the biggest issue was the darkening on the right hand side. This created an optical illusion in the case and made the dial look distinctly off centre.
So I had a think about the dial while I relumed the hands..
With the hands done,I turned my attention to the dial again..

Now there is one general rule regarding dial cleaning... don't do it !
In almost all cases cleaning a dial will make it worse and you shouldn't really go beyond a soft artists brush or a puff of air to remove loose dust/dirt.
The exception is old enamel dials with hairlines,a few minutes in the ultrasonic will lift the dirt from the tiny cracks and render them invisible.It works wonders.
With all that said, I have had some success in gently spot cleaning full lume dials a couple of times in the past. I'm not recommending you try it because I don't want to be held responsible for any disasters !
It will not work on all dials either, not all these full lume dials are equal even though they look the same. Some of them are bare lume like this one and some have a clearcoat on top. I don't know if this is a timescale thing or they just used multiple suppliers. If it's clearcoated there is nothing you can do,the lacquer traps the spotting and darkening underneath,game over.

So, with a tiny artists brush I gently worked very small amounts of a proprietary mould cleaner into the darker spots,left it for a few minutes and then rolled a cotton swab over the area to lift the dirt away. It worked quite well,I then left the dial in a warm place in direct sunlight for a couple of days to be sure it was fully dry. The UV would also help kill any mold spores.
Here is the cleaned dial having just set the re lumed hands back in place.
Definitely a significant improvement.

Now it was time to fit a new crystal, these are a 24mm diameter x 2mm thick and are pressed into a nylon L profile gasket.
This is not what you want your gasket to look like !
As you can see, it's gone brittle and large sections of the L profile have broken away. It was also the wrong size which is why the glass wasn't seated level.
Fortunately, I had a suitable new gasket in my spares and fitting the crystal was then trouble free.
I then took the opportunity to remove the plastic click spring and give it a good clean. These clicks do sometimes break,this one was ok.
The click spring has four sprung areas which when seated correctly are positioned at 12,3,6 and 9. When you remove the bezel it's a good idea to slide your blade under the bezel in an area away from those positions.You don't want to be prying on the sprung sections as it will likely break them.
On the underside of the click spring are four pegs which locate into the four holes on the case you can see in the photo below. Make sure these are properly located and the click is properly seated before putting the bezel back on.
In my spares box I had a reasonably good bezel,it's an all white one rather than the correct one with the red 0 to 15 markings. I could paint it in but to be honest I prefer the all white and it's my watch 🤣 The red they used is a bit dark and I feel they look like something is missing,should have done them fluorescent orange or something.

Final job is casing up and a new caseback gasket as the old one had gone hard.
I also had an original bracelet tucked away and with that tidied up a little here is the end result:

Quite a transformation and the lume is good too.

Total cost for this restoration was zero as I had all the parts I needed. Fortunately I don't charge myself labour as it took an hour to get the caseback off !

Parts and specs.

The movements in the Formula One's vary. Very early watches can have a Ronda SA 705 or an ETA 965.313
Most later watches you will find have an ETA 555.412 0r 955.412. You can use any 555/955.4XX movement as a replacement providing it's not a two hand version.Check the photos of a potential replacement to make sure it has a second hand pinion. There are also some versions with date at 6,these can be used after swapping the date wheel.
If you need a circuit and coil you can use one from the ubiquitous 555/955.112 or any of the many variants as well as those from the 555/955.4XX series.Although the 955.112 is a 11.5 ligne movement vs 10.5 the difference is in the movement plate the circuits are the same size.

If want to go modern, the ETA F05.115 is a straight swap. Personally, I like the old Normline movements,they were built to be serviced,they are period correct and they look nicer to my eye.

Hand sizes for the 955.412 are 120/70/20 or 1.2mm , 0.7mm and 0.2mm , the earlier ETA 965.313 has different hand sizes 130/80/20 and different dial feet positions. Research suggests the early movement cannot be directly swapped with the later one.

Crystal
24mm diameter x 2mm thickness. Standard flat mineral with a slight bevelled edge. You can go sapphire if you wish.

Crystal gasket
25mm Outside diameter/ 24mm Inside diameter.
Cousins UK list a specific F1 gasket for these watches with the above measurements,part number T59319
You can also use a Sternkreuz LG250239 with a 23.9mm inside diameter,this will give a tighter crystal fit but you will need a press to get it in.

Caseback gasket
Generic 30mm outside diameter x 28mm inside diameter.

Another great write up @Thehighwayman! 👍

This one is of particular interest, as I own several original F1s. Can the Ronda SA 705 be used in place of the ESA 965.313? Justin (TAG1000Diver) told me that the newer ETA movements can't be swapped with the early ESA 965.313 as the dial peg holes are in different positions. I'm wondering if the Ronda SA 705 will work with a dial that was originally attached to an ESA 965.313?

Thanks Michael 👍
Justin is right,dial feet positions are different as well as the hand sizes. To be precise,the second hand is the same but the hour and minute differ slightly. It could still be done by snipping the dial feet and having new ones attached in the correct position.
Not sure on the early Ronda,it's not a movement I have had much experience with. I'll have a look tomorrow and see if I can find the dial feet position. Hard to imagine if they were using the the Ronda and the earlier ETA at the same time they were producing different dials for each but you never know.

Any insight into whether those two movements can be interchanged (plug & play) would be appreciated. I have the ESA 965.313 in my OG F1, curious if the Ronda can work as a replacement.

@Snowy (who has perhaps the world's largest OG F1 collection) and I believe that the ESA 965.313 was the first movement used. My watch is date stamped 3.86 (first pic). Which was then followed by the Ronda in '87 (second pic), as seen in @Snowy's watch.

We theorize that with ESA becoming a part of ETA, there might've been supply chain constraints on the 965.313 and hence the Ronda SA 705 was used as a stop gap until moving to the ETA 955.412/414 found in the majority of the vintage F1s in the '90s.

That sounds quite feasible,the original movement in mine is date stamped 4.88 so they were using the 555/955.412 by then.
I would agree the 965.313 is very likely the first movement used.

After a bit of research I don't believe the Ronda will straight swap with a 965.313.
The hand sizes on the Ronda are the same as the later 955.412 at 120/70/20. The 965.313 uses 130/80/20.
Dial feet position also appears to be different. The Ronda looks like 10 and 40,the 965.313 is a bit odd, something like 11 and 37.

While I was looking into this I found mention of the early case being thicker to accommodate the depth of the 965.313,that seems quite plausible. The early ESA/ETA were quite chunky movements at around 5mm thickness, the later ones are 2.5mm.
If the early case is subtly different you would run into stem height issues as well.

Very interesting, thanks for posting! Good to say old F1s being rescued from the rubbish heap!

Thanks Rob 👍
I specialise in the rubbish heap! 😉

Thanks for checking on the Ronda.

My watch had stopped working, but Justin got it going a few years ago by giving it an overhaul service. But it now seems to be acting up again. Tried changing the circuit/coil, but that didn't fix it. I noticed that the Ronda 705 movements are quite a bit cheaper compared to the 965.313s that are for sale, that's the reason I wondered if it might be interchangeable.

What's the best way to check if a movement is good when buying a replacement? I don't want to invest in expensive equipment, so I just stick in a battery and use a small piece of paper with a pin hole to see if the second hand moves correctly. But I know that's probably far from being the best method to test.

Another question, what technique do you use to separate the dial feet from the movement? I've done this on a cheap watch for practice but found that I had to pry pretty hard to get the dial off. I used a small plastic screw driver.

In what way is it acting up?

There isn't a huge amount you can do at home to check a quartz movement. It's not wholly correct to say they either work or they don't but there is an element of that.
Sometimes you see odd things like running at twice speed or running backwards but it's not common.

You can really separate out problems into either circuit/coil issues or mechanical issues.

I have a quartz tester which enables me to check whether a circuit has a pulse. This is very useful as it enables you to check whether the circuit is live.
If you have a pulse but no action on the second hand you have a mechanical issue. Mechanical issues are almost always gummy oil or debris in the train. The rotor which is part of the stepping motor is a permanent magnet, that is particularly good at attracting bits of metallic swarf etc and can then lock up.

No pulse generally means a bad coil or circuit. Sometimes it can be a electrical contact issue, usually as a result of battery leakage.

I also have what is known as a line free machine. This basically spins the hands up really fast and will free up a gummy movement. It's not a substitute for servicing but it does work and is useful on movements that are not designed to be serviced.

You can get a cheap machine to do both these things on Amazon or Ali X. They aren't fantastic quality and look like a kids toy but they work. I have a good one and a cheap one and frankly the cheap one would suffice.
I'll put a link up a bit later for you.

Dial removal is not standardised, lots of variations in how dial feet are secured to the movement.
You've seen the ETA swing U clips in my posts. You also get tiny screws in the side of movements which you back off to release the feet and when tightened they clamp up on the leg of the dial foot. Your 965.313 uses that system from memory.
Older mechanical movements often have securing screws visible in between the movement bridge plates, they have an eccentric circle when turned and then bite into the leg to secure.
Some movements use a friction fit system and they are pryed off gently, the popular Seiko NH35 uses that method.

With experience you get to recognise how the dial is attached, prying is only the correct method on friction fit dials.

@Mspeedster
This is the sort of thing Michael.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...lgo_pvid=18e41bca-28ac-4a83-a789-36c00a2759ad

Turn the machine on.
Turn the second switch to D.
Place the movement with good battery on the pad marked detector. If the movement has a good coil and circuit the machine will beep every second and the red light will flash.
If there is no response, either the circuit/coil is bad or the movement has an electrical connection issue.

If the machine beeps and the light flashs but the movement is not running then a mechanical issue is the culprit.

To use line free on a gummy movement, switch to the M setting. Then place the movement on the Mechanic pad. You usually have to move it around a bit to find the best spot that spins up the hands. The third S/F switch is fast/slow and controls the speed the hands spin up.

Some of my old F1s used to do odd things when I pulled the crown out, including going backwards...

Were you younger when you took it off again? 😉
I've seen it a few times, a bent stator is often the culprit if the watch has been dropped.

Thanks for your response @Thehighwayman!👍

The problem symptom of my watch is it will run for a bit, then seems to get stuck. The second hand looks like it's trying to move, but basically oscillates back and forth ever so slightly in the same spot. Sometimes putting in a new battery will jump start it again, however in a matter of days it gets stuck again.

As mentioned before, it had a complete mechanical overhaul service just a few years ago. Justin has had it back a second time and can find nothing mechanical or electrical to be at fault. So, I am the stage to where replacing the 365.313 seems to be my best option.

Just to be clear, my previous question was not about how to remove the movement from the case. It was about how to safely remove the dial plate from the movement. The dial pegs/feet can be pretty stuck in the movement's holes (depending on the watch), too much force might bend or otherwise damage the dial plate. But that was on a different watch, which I guess was friction based.

Haha, nothing to do with me guvnor!

Yep, I'm also talking about removing the dial plate from the movement 👍
Lots of different ways that dial feet are secured and they are often not a friction fit on better quality movements.
Prying on a dial that is secured by the other methods I listed will often result in snapping the feet off.
On a friction fit dial I pry gently on one side, lifting it slightly and then move to the opposite side and do the same. Keep alternating on each side until the dial feet are clear of the movement.

I also do that when lifting a dial off that is secured by clamps or screws but you shouldn't need to pry it,it should be loose.

Your running problems are typical of a quartz that needs the mechanical train cleaning and lubricating. I don't doubt Justin did a good job though so it could just be down to general wear. Imagine how many rotations that train has gone through over 40 years.

@Mspeedster
Here is a 965.313.
The dial is secured with the two screws you can see on the side of the movement near the 10 and the 24 on the date wheel.
The dial feet slip down the side of the screw and then are secured by the screw head once tightened.
Simply back the screws off a turn to release the dial.

Thanks! That looks way easier than the friction dial pegs that I had to deal with on my other (non-TAG Heuer) watch.

How is the dial secured to the 955.412 movement?

Yes, its simple and effective. The only pitfall is overtightening, the design means there is pressure on one side of the screw head and not on the other. They can therefore shear so just nip them up enough to lock the dial.

The 955.412 uses the swinging clips, these are excellent.
The hole for the dial foot is where the tweezer tip is pointing. You then swing the U shaped clip back and the outer edge presses against the dial foot and locks it in.
Removal is the reverse, swing the clip out and release.

Anytime the dial feet go through a metal plate there will be a securing mechanism of some sort. Friction fit dials are only seen where the feet are going through plastic.

Yeah this is why I don't touch nothing. If you don't know what you're doing there's just a million mistakes to be made.

This is very true, but also people only learn by actually doing things. The trick is to learn and make mistakes on things that don't matter too much!

If people want to have a go at watch repair then I say buy a bag of old movements. Take them apart, put them back together, learn what makes them tick. Read plenty of written material and put it into practice on cheap watches or movements.

I think also some people have a natural affinity/ability for doing precise practical work. It needs patience, a light touch and to a degree an analytical mind for fault finding etc.
People who are good at model making, working on electronics, jewellery making etc have a head start.

Not everyone can do it. Some people are just naturally heavy handed or not good at practical tasks. I don't think that can be taught.