What's the big space in this movement for?

ChrisN · May 23, 2015

The clues on the left where the movement calibre is displayed. Anyway, ignoring that...

Here's the plate with barrel mounted under the big steel ratchet wheel. Next to that is the smaller crown wheel that will connect to the crown at 3 O'clock in this view (it's from behind but upside down). So, the crown wheel will wind the mainspring via the ratchet wheel and as the spring unwinds thw barrel will drive the central second wheel on which the minute hand will be mounted. The hour wheel and hand will be driven from the second wheel but on the other side of the plate.

Here, there's a bridge fitted on top of the second wheel and the other wheels added. 3rd wheel on the right driven by the 2nd and the 4th wheel (driven by the 3rd) is back in the centre and goes through the second wheel so that a second hand can be fitted to it. It also drives the escape wheel below it (the steel one with strange shaped teeth).

Here with the bridge for these three fitted (the watchmakers may notice I haven't put the screws in yet...). The fork, which contacts the escape wheel, and balance will go on the left. That's everything to make a watch but there's a huge space at the lower that is not used.....yet.

Adding fork, balance tomorrow and then filling that space. Not an Omega but I think these types of watches are quite cool and am increasing my knowledge with different complications - as a hobbyist, I can flit about so, I do!

Cheers, Chris

Stewart H · May 23, 2015

Very nice Chris. I don't own a watch with this alarming hole in the plate, so I'll be following this thread with interest.

VetPsychWars · May 23, 2015

My guess is that this is a micro-rotor movement and that's where the automatic stuff goes?

Tom

Geo! · May 23, 2015

I've seen something like this before, it's sort of ringing bells.

redpcar · May 23, 2015

JimInOz · May 23, 2015

Alarm barrel?

ChrisN · May 24, 2015

VetPsychWars
My guess is that this is a micro-rotor movement and that's where the automatic stuff goes?

Tom

Now I need to find one of these. I've not seen a micro rotor so will add it to the list, thanks.

Pretty obvious now what's going there after some of these puns👍. Created a little buzz among the tinkerers.... ::facepalm1::

Will put up some pics as it goes together.

CanberraOmega · May 24, 2015

Best way of getting a micro rotor is UNiveral Geneve polerouter

Georgieboy58 · May 24, 2015

As already mentioned a look into Dr. Ranfft's archive shows that the AS 1475 is an alarm movement, so the barrel for the alarm will fill this space.

Archer · May 24, 2015

The fact is has 2 stems kind of gives it away...

Of course there are alarm watches that do it all with just one crown/stem, like this Langendorf:

I don't get many alarm watches in for service, but I do enjoy working on them when they do come in.

Cheers, Al

ChrisN · May 24, 2015

Interesting and that is clever. Might take me a while to get this one back together as it has a few faults. I couldn't make any sense of the timegrapher before I opened it up and now I can. The news is not good...

Needs a fourth wheel which is out of true. Easy enough at £10 from Cousins.
Rate variation was 240 seconds between horizontal and vertical. The regulating pins seemed far apart which made sense as vertical was very slow. Brought them which improved things to 40 seconds but, the spring is neither flat nor properly concentric and I know I won't be able to fix it. Non shock complete balances available but not for mine with Incablocs. Will research...

Cheers, Chris

VetPsychWars · May 24, 2015

ChrisN
Needs a fourth wheel which is out of true. Easy enough at £10 from Cousins.

Why wouldn't you true the wheel yourself? How do you know the new wheel will be true?

Tom

Stewart H · May 24, 2015

VetPsychWars
Why wouldn't you true the wheel yourself? How do you know the new wheel will be true?

Tom

Tom. I think it is the hairspring that is the problem, rather than the balance wheel.

Chris. Just a thought but Cousins obviously have (at least) one ordinary balance complete. They also have three packs of Inca staffs. Could you not buy the balance and swap the hairspring over or buy the balance and replace the staff?.

ChrisN · May 24, 2015

Hi Tom

The fourth wheel in this calibre takes the central second hand and it would appear someone has tried fitted that hand at an angle putting a 15 degree kink at the end. It's not a smooth long curve so I doubt I will be able to straighten it. I can't see why a new part would have such a fault. A bit like major truing of the balance spring, straightening that kink may be beyond me at the moment.

To be honest the hairspring was a bit of a mess although the rest of the movement seems generally nice. For 95% of my movements, I don't have to really do anything there so am at the limit of my ability. At least this is not an Omega with expensive parts.

Thanks Stewart, I also noticed that. My impression is that the spring and balance would be tuned together (Chicago L32) for these older movements so swapping springs may not work. Shame as this is not too difficult.

The next, as you say, is to swap the staff on the new balance. Now, I've read about this and ways of doing it so will investigate a bit further but it is not a trivial task as you know, so we'll see.

Cheers, Chris

Stewart H · May 24, 2015

ChrisN
Thanks Stewart, I also noticed that. My impression is that the spring and balance would be tuned together (Chicago L32) for these older movements so swapping springs may not work. Shame as this is not too difficult.

The next, as you say, is to swap the staff on the new balance. Now, I've read about this and ways of doing it so will investigate a bit further but it is not a trivial task as you know, so we'll see.

Cheers, Chris

I'm not sure you would need to go through the rigmarole of vibrating the hairspring but hopefully one of the pros will chip in here.

There are always a couple of cheats you could do and they are to pay a watchmaker either to true the existing hairspring or to replace the staff in the new balance.

ChrisN · May 24, 2015

I'm going to have a third go at that hairspring and buy the non Inca balance as a backup with an Inca staff. I bought this one as a project and it's certainly turned into one.😁 I haven't got to the dial yet...

Archer · May 24, 2015

ChrisN
I'm going to have a third go at that hairspring and buy the non Inca balance as a backup with an Inca staff. I bought this one as a project and it's certainly turned into one.😁 I haven't got to the dial yet...

Have you changed a balance staff yet? Do you have a lathe, gravers, poising tool, truing calipers (assume you have a staking set, balance spring levers, and roller remover)?

Please be aware that there may be differences in the staff that would cause difficulties just swapping one for another, so you might want to find the staff dimensions for both versions and do some comparison before (hopefully) cutting out the old staff on the lathe (please don't tell me you punch them out....please....).

And balance springs of this era I would expect to be more individually tailored to the balance wheel, so just swapping the spring may not work. Also again possible differences in stud length, heights etc. (back to possible differences in the two staffs) and this is not at all a certain solution...this is why it's important to learn how to fix balance springs at least to some degree.

With regards to truing the wheel (sounds like more the pivot than the wheel itself?) always better to have a spare on hand. It's certainly worth a try, if nothing else for the practice of doing it, but there are techniques for this - not just gab it and bend - that will always end up with 2 pieces. I use a set of #8 tweezers typically. Put the end of the jaws past the bend point, and gently tweeze...remember that's why they call them tweezers and not "benders" because you tweeze with them just like we have talked about when correcting a bend in a balance spring say for an out of flat condition. Don't try to take it all out at once, and if it's really bad you may need to anneal the pivot and then harden again after straightening.

Cheers, Al

Geo! · May 25, 2015

Excellent advice from Al. Have a look at these videos if you haven't already doe so. You may well be able to save the original hairspring.

ChrisN · May 25, 2015

Archer
Have you changed a balance staff yet? Do you have a lathe, gravers, posing tool, truing calipers (assume you have a staking set, balance spring levers, and roller remover)?

Please be aware that there may be differences in the staff that would cause difficulties just swapping one for another, so you might want to find the staff dimensions for both versions and do some comparison before (hopefully) cutting out the old staff on the lathe (please don't tell me you punch them out....please....).

Cheers, Al

Hi Al

I always use a 4lb lump hammer and centre punch, I'm not a butcher you know😁 Seriously, in my books, punching them out is called bad workmanship as you can damage the hole - makes sense to me with the very hard staff material. I know these need undercutting on a lathe and as I don't have one, this would have to go to someone else. The more I read about staff changes, the more I'm convinced that even if I invest the money in the kit and the time to learn how to use it, it would be hit and miss. So, not the way to go.

Like I said, back to spring manipulation to see if I can rescue this. Someone has clearly attempted this before as well as messing with the regulation pins so, it might take a while. As you know, I've had some success with hairsprings but really just in plane. It's interesting but frustrating so best to do in small doses.

Cheers, Chris

ChrisN · May 25, 2015

Geo!
Excellent advice from Al. Have a look at these videos if you haven't already doe so. You may well be able to save the original hairspring

Thanks Geo. Will have a look.