SAS Gold Polerouter - Tore Nilert

Mazoue · Dec 7, 2017

As publicised by @gop76 in the eBay thread on this forum, what appears to be an SAS Polerouter surfaced on eBay at the weekend. Fortunately for me, this had crossed my radar almost as soon as it was listed and the seller was happy to pass the watch to an enthusiastic collector.

Apparently the seller's father, who died recently, had owned the watch for 25-30 years. He had often bought from flea markets, so the seller thinks that's probably where he got it from.

I'm trying not to count my chickens as I'm still waiting for it to arrive. This is the best image we have so far, so fingers crossed it is what it appears to be. I'll post further info and photos as soon as it arrives.

Diabolik · Dec 7, 2017

Nice, but the UG font from much later than I would expect for a SAS. The applied U is also not in line with the font as I would have expected a printed U in a cartuce with that font. It does not work for me ...

That font was used in mi to late 60's and I would not expect to see it on a late 50s early 60s SAS ...

But I could be wrong 😡 ...

Mazoue · Dec 7, 2017

I completely agree regarding the date. It's clearly not from the same period as those in the pictures above. But we have seen an SAS Polerouter in the past (see below) from @Dre that suggests that there was a relationship between UG and SAS well beyond the 1950s. In fact, his watch is likely to be later than mine.

I also agree with your comments on the applied U. The problem is that I think it's just impossible to generalise with these watches. The printing in the lower half of the dial would have needed to be bespoke because it is in the upper half on all other Polerouters. Perhaps a slightly older dial with an applied U was used and then printed for this purpose?

Mine appears to have SAS engraved in addition to the SAS emblem, which we've not seen before. It has hands of the like we've not seen on a gold polerouter before although they do look to be UG hands of the correct shape and size. I believe that these pieces were bespoke and that the normal rules simply fail to apply.

It has just arrived in the post, at least one day earlier than expected. More photos to follow shortly.

watch3s · Dec 7, 2017

Nice! saw your ig post the other and was meaning to msg you about that no date. having also been watching the bay for polerouters, would any of you discount or ignore polerouters auctions on the bay from say Mexico or perhaps Thailand, India?

Diabolik · Dec 7, 2017

Mazoue
I completely agree regarding the date. It's clearly not from the same period as those in the pictures above. But we have seen an SAS Polerouter in the past (see below) from @Dre that suggests that there was a relationship between UG and SAS well beyond the 1950s. In fact, his watch is likely to be later than mine.

I also agree with your comments on the applied U. The problem is that I think it's just impossible to generalise with these watches. The printing in the lower half of the dial would have needed to be bespoke because it is in the upper half on all other Polerouters. Perhaps a slightly older dial with an applied U was used and then printed for this purpose?

Mine appears to have SAS engraved in addition to the SAS emblem, which we've not seen before. It has hands of the like we've not seen on a gold polerouter before although they do look to be UG hands of the correct shape and size. I believe that these pieces were bespoke and that the normal rules simply fail to apply.

It has just arrived in the post, at least one day earlier than expected. More photos to follow shortly.

serial and reference ?

Mazoue · Dec 7, 2017

More photos to follow. Absolutely over the moon with the watch. It is 100% legit.

The most telling fact is that it has an engraving on the back of the watch:

"T. H. NILERT March 1941 March 1961"

I have not yet done any research but a quick google search has revealed that he was a senior SAS employee in the 1960s.

Mazoue · Dec 7, 2017

Serial 2375036
Ref 169101/01

Carlton-Browne · Dec 7, 2017

watch3s
Nice! saw your ig post the other and was meaning to msg you about that no date. having also been watching the bay for polerouters, would any of you discount or ignore polerouters auctions on the bay from say Mexico or perhaps Thailand, India?

I'd never say never to a purchase from any destination; it's more important to look at the watch. Obviously if it's in India, has a baby pink dial and has been polished by Ray Charles then all of the usual preconceptions stand. One thing I have observed over the last few years is that UG seem to have sold quite a bit into Venezuela; sadly, it's a reflection on the financial turmoil in that country that more samples are finding their way onto Ebay. Mind you, without this I wouldn't have a bracelet for this so it's not all bad.

Mazoue · Dec 7, 2017

gop76 · Dec 7, 2017

What a great catch. Congrats

ConElPueblo · Dec 7, 2017

Very exciting 👍

Diabolik · Dec 7, 2017

Mazoue
More photos to follow. Absolutely over the moon with the watch. It is 100% legit.

The most telling fact is that it has an engraving on the back of the watch:

"T. H. NILERT March 1941 March 1961"

I have not yet done any research but a quick google search has revealed that he was a senior SAS employee in the 1960s.

I don't want to sound incredulous but in the collecting business, it is always best to do the homework thoroughly and jump in after. The truth is that I am a little lost.

Watch serial places it around 64-65 (that is after the named individual on inscription was awarded the watch in 1961), so when was this watch given to the so called SAS employee? while he was at SAS or some years after ? I am surprised not to see any details of why the watch was awarded like 20 years service of other ... Just seems a little strange to see a name march 41 / march 61 (20 years and a month) and nothing else.

I don't see the inscription substantiating the claim of originality and still have doubts on the front as the font would have been different in 64-65 that the one shown on dial. It does not make any sense.to me. Perhaps some of the polerouter experts could comment ...

From an engineering point of view, I am also concerned with SAS inscription. It is not consistent. It looks too rough and (although i cant be sure) il looks like the inscription on back was done with the same tool ...

I am not convinced ...

Mazoue · Dec 7, 2017

@Diabolik I have the utmost respect for your rigour and your need for consistency etc. But I am so convinced, I feel absolutely no need to offer any further proof or reasoning.

It appears that Tore Nilert was head of SAS in North America from 1941.

Please don't think that I am being facetious but in all seriousness:

- Is it more likely that this was watch was awarded to him to mark 20 years of service or perhaps 20 years within that role?

- Or is it more likely that someone took a gold Polerouter, had the dial engraved with the SAS logo and emblem, had the dial printed in the bottom half in the way that no other Polerouters are, found some unusual hands seen on no other gold Polerouter, identified the name of a senior SAS employee and then had his name engraved on the back?

Interestingly, the SAS Polerouter belonging to @Dre also had an American connection.

Tony C. · Dec 7, 2017

Looks like a fake to me.

The engraving on the back is recent, and quite obviously so. And a "known" name such as "Nilert" would be the obvious choice of a forger.

Mazoue · Dec 7, 2017

@Tony C. I will of course have to respectfully disagree.

I am interested in your comment that the engraving on the back of the watch is quite obviously recent.

Could you explain further and perhaps add some photos of gold watches from the mid 1960s with engravings that you believe to be genuine?

ConElPueblo · Dec 7, 2017

Tony C.
Looks like a fake to me.

The engraving on the back is recent, and quite obviously so. And a "known" name such as "Nilert" would be the obvious choice of a forger.

I agree on the caseback engraving - the close-ups @Mazoue provided shows that the main engraving is much crisper than the serial number engraving that is placed in the periphery of the back where the wear should be less than the central part. Do the slight scratches on the lower part of the "CH" in the first line of text cross the engraving, or does the engraving cross the scratches?

A part of the story doesn't make sense to me: that the seller's father had had the watch for 25-30 years... Nilert died in 1997 (20 years ago) and was of Swedish nobility, not someone who had been down on his luck and had to liquidate his assets. Only if he had given the watch away a fair bit of time ago (to someone who had then sold it on?) or he had been robbed, would the watch had entered the market. I don't know, it just seems like an odd story all together.

EDIT: That last part is, naturally, just me thinking aloud. Pure speculation.

gop76 · Dec 7, 2017

Why would someone pick up a gold watch, that, untill recently, was not very regarded, engraved the dial with a complex logo that only appeals to a tiny niche of the market, searched for the name of an employee of the company at the time,on top of that used a correct font for a UG and then advertised it as a "Montre ancienne universal genève en or, le verre est un peu rayé, elle fonctionne parfaitement"?

Tony C. · Dec 7, 2017

Mazoue
@Tony C. I will of course have to respectfully disagree.

I am interested in your comment that the engraving on the back of the watch is quite obviously recent.

Could you explain further and perhaps add some photos of gold watches from the mid 1960s with engravings that you believe to be genuine?

Look at the old, faint, spiral polish. That was not a factory polish - it was done later. Now, the inscription is engraved on top of the polish - in other words later. That is an obvious problem.

Furthermore, look at the edges of the engraved letters. They are too pronounced. The case back shows wear, and over many years, those edges, or ridges, should be worn down.

Tony C. · Dec 7, 2017

gop76
Why would someone pick up a gold watch, that, untill recently, was not very regarded, engraved the dial with a complex logo that only appeals to a tiny niche of the market, searched for the name of an employee of the company at the time,on top of that used a correct font for a UG and then advertised it as a "Montre ancienne universal genève en or, le verre est un peu rayé, elle fonctionne parfaitement"?

The difference in value between an ordinary Polerouter and an SAS can be quite large. Are you really asking why someone might want to fake it?

As for the title of the advert, it makes the seller appear naïve, which could be a clever way of drawing buyers in.

Mazoue · Dec 7, 2017

I have to agree with @gop76. I could not be more convinced that the watch is genuine however if there is any chance at all that this watch was fabricated in some way, it was certainly nothing to do with this seller.

All my interaction with the family has led me to believe they are perfectly genuine and pleasant people. Why would they list it on French eBay with no option to ship it outside of France if they were looking to draw buyers in? And why accept the first offer they received at a level that was barely above what I would pay for a gold polerouter?