Modifying vintage movements

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I liked this Weiss from day one. Even more after reading about the company and Mr. Weiss.

Workhorse of a PW movement with parts to be found if necessary plus handsome esthetics.

So, nail the esthetics and choose a movement that can be easily serviced and has easily available parts.

I thought he had come up with his own movement, now I’m not so certain.
 
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I thought he had come up with his own movement, now I’m not so certain.


1st gen(mine) he used new but old design PW movements, then developed his own design.
 
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I was on the hunt for a well made period conversion of a Molnija pocket watch for quite some time, as a poor man's Panerai 😉 and enjoy wearing i quite a lot. It would not get any use as a pocket watch, which would be a shame given the quality.



However the wast majority of more recent / modern pocket watch conversions in general are poorly done, as stated here before. I believe most will also agree that it is always problematic to fit a non original dial and/or case on any movement. I also find the modification of vintage movements with colored, tempered screws to be in poor taste to be honest.
That being said, I am a bit sad about all the beautiful pocket watch movements that are not being used due to the casing, but would always prefer the addition of lugs to the original watch than a complete recasing and redial.
I am specifically thinking e.g. about the amazing Illinois Watch Co watches (Bunn Special), that get too little use in their pocket form for the amazing watch that they are.
 
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I thought he had come up with his own movement, now I’m not so certain.

The one shown is the standard ETA 6497, which is a current production movement (I’ve used these myself in several hundred watches). He then basically started to produce that same movement (or parts of it at least) himself. It’s a common strategy because you can ramp up the production of various parts, and still use some parts made by ETA. You can start by making the simple stuff, like bridges, then the main plate, and then move on to start making various wheels, etc.
 
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I liked this Weiss from day one. Even more after reading about the company and Mr. Weiss.

Workhorse of a PW movement with parts to be found if necessary plus handsome esthetics.

So, nail the esthetics and choose a movement that can be easily serviced and has easily available parts.


I thought he had come up with his own movement, now I’m not so certain.

Well, that appears to be a dirt-common ETA/Unitas 6497 or 6498.
 
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Well, that appears to be a dirt-common ETA/Unitas 6497 or 6498.


Hence, parts availability as far as the eye can see, if necessary.....but like I stated, a well proven workhorse, so unless abused and neglected probably won't need parts.
 
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I might have been interested in Weiss except he made a watch using the same case, dial, and hands I bought from Otto Frei. It was a case of, "why is his name on my watch?!".

So, eh.
 
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I’m good with the practice, provided as some stated, the movements not being taken from perfectly well aged vintage watches.

Personally, I like the idea of going back to the older movements that are nice and slim. It’s the one thing holding me back from purchasing a modern Omega Seamaster.

@Caliber561 never seen those Atelier’s before… really interested now in acquiring one.
 
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I was on the hunt for a well made period conversion of a Molnija pocket watch for quite some time, as a poor man's Panerai 😉 and enjoy wearing i quite a lot. It would not get any use as a pocket watch, which would be a shame given the quality.


I happen to have that exact dial variant on my Molnija pocket watch 😁
 
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.... So what are people's thoughts on this generally, and specifically using Omega 30T2 Chronometer movements?

Cheers, Al

Al, like others, I really enjoy your thoughtful posts. They're detailed, educational, and interesting. Of all that I've read from your threads, I think this one is my favorite.

I didn't even know this was a thing, (even though I visited the watch and clock museum.) But it is encouraging to learn that people are creating and innovating in this way.

I can't speak to your question about the use of the 30T2 movement. I simply don't have the depth of knowledge and experience about movements, which I greatly admire in others.

As to your question about this generally, I think, rather than it simply being tolerated, it should be encouraged. The expansion of thought has always come from the creative souls who reimagine the familiar and create something completely new. It's usually the craftspeople who have mastered their craft who push the boundaries and create something that wasn't seen before. This is what elevates a craft into art, when the person who created an object can make something that says something about the person who created it.

It's encouraging to know that there are still watchmakers who are mixing things up to create something new and beautiful, whether or not everything is to everyones liking. It will be a sad day when we can perfectly create the exact same movement time and time again but cannot create anything new.

So, in general, innovation and creativity seems healthy for any craft. Not that every example will be a success, but without people trying something new, how will we know what is possible?
 
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I happen to have that exact dial variant on my Molnija pocket watch 😁

This is the early, good one from the early 50s. They started to cheap out on the movements and dials pretty soon after.
 
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I've got mixed feelings about this. I don't mind using old movements to create something new but for me there is a difference between ébauches, which were from the beginning conceived and made to be fitted in whatever case under whatever brand with whatever customized aesthetics (like some pretty good Peseux and other names there were) and branded movements like Omega or Longines. Neither do I mind using old caseless pocket movements, even branded ones, since pocket hologery is dead and buried so why not put those lovely movements to some use.

But this RG 30T2, if at least there were some real horological improvement... otherwise what's the point? blue nails? I rather have it as a donor for a proper vintage watch.
Edited:
 
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For me personally, once you buy something, it's yours. If you want to modify it, or smash it with a hammer, that's your choice. As long as it's not something museum worthy, and you aren't modding it to deceive anyone, then I'm quite okay with it….

But Omega also has no say when I sell one of their vintage watches here on OF. Or when a grey market dealer does same with a modern watch. Seems to all come down to whether the folks repurposing the movements venture into somehow misrepresenting the nature of the watch or it’s relationship to Omega.


I'd say that regarding these particular watches, I think it is a shame that they use scarce movements which could otherwise act as donors for rare, cosmetically original watches. Had it been a "standard" 30mm movement, I would be much less opposed.

Seems to be broad agreement that when you purchase a watch (or watch parts) you’re largely free to do whatever the hell you choose, strictly speaking (other than attempt to deceive). But nonetheless and despite this general rule, our hobby’s sentimentality (is it?) disfavors the use of a scarce horological resource to do anything other than further the preservation of historically accurate watches. Could there be something that trumps ownership, and becomes more akin to cultural stewardship?

Rather than pure sentimentality, an argument could be made that somewhere in this gut feeling of collectors is a notion like that underlying The Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict - (i.e., the rules that disallow countries at war from destroying one-another’s museums and significant cultural sites) - which boils down to it’s preamble view that:

... any damage to cultural property, irrespective of the people it belongs to, is a damage to the cultural heritage of all humanity, because every people contributes to the world's culture..."

Only to suggest that there is some precedent for the feeling that certain items are of enough historical (and so cultural) significance that mere ownership may be trumped by something like stewardship.

But that seems to be a prohibition on destruction?

Academic musing aside, in the present instant of these rare movements being cosmetically altered and used in non-original caseworks, I suppose that while some of the cosmetic alterations may be irreversible (?), in theory these movements (or many of their parts) could in the future still be used to maintain other movements? They’re not exactly being destroyed, are they.

Which is to say, these folks aren’t smashing the movements with hammers, nor are they - for the most part - absolutely prohibiting the future use of the movements for restorative purposes. I suppose if I owned one of these movements and merely asked an unreasonably high purchase price I’d be “taking it out of circulation” to the same degree, even though not altering it.

Well, this has been fine procrastination of a garage that won’t be cleaning itself, will it.


 
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y
But this RG 30T2, if at least there were some real horological improvement... otherwise what's the point? blue nails? I rather have it as a donor for a proper vintage watch.

Well, again I’m not sure if there are some other performance improvements done or not. But that aside I think the most simple answer to “why bother” is to sell watches. By adding some hand work and presumably bring the watch back to proper operation, there is some added value over just sticking a vintage movement in a case, and you can charge good money for that.

This sort of thing won’t appeal to the hardcore vintage collectors, but there will be a segment of the market that will like this sort of thing very much.
 
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This sort of thing won’t appeal to the hardcore vintage collectors, but there will be a segment of the market that will like this sort of thing very much.
In very much the same way redialed watches don’t appeal to collectors, but a shiny freshly painted, highly polished black Seamaster is very appealing to the watch buying public who want the vintage look. We-vintage collectors- are a very small percentage of watch buyers. Mechanical watches are a novelty for the most part- the more novel the better outside of our little bubble.
 
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This sort of thing won’t appeal to the hardcore vintage collectors, but there will be a segment of the market that will like this sort of thing very much.

I can definitely see that. But I also tend to think that those people don't really appreciate the Rg version over a standard 30T2. I agree that this person can do anything he wants with his property. I just think it's a shame to use these desirable movements. Just my subjective opinion.
 
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Could there be something that trumps ownership, and becomes more akin to cultural stewardship?

This was very much the feeling that I got from the comments on the other forum, that watchmakers were stewards of these pieces so this sort of work was frowned upon. I think this idea does come down to rarity in a way, because it appears that here it’s only the more rare movements being used that bothers people.

But this idea is interesting, and it made me wonder a bit about how service is done and the responsibilities of both service providers and owners...

What I mean is that vintage collectors often don’t want certain parts replaced, like crowns and pushers, so very often the watches are not protected from water ingress. This puts the important parts of the watch at risk of “destruction” from water. Omega is criticized often ( by me and others) for not acquiescing to owners demands to replace those parts for water resistance. So are they, in this way, better cultural stewards than the collectors by reducing that risk? Does this risk reduction “trump” the wishes of watch owners?
 
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Well, again I’m not sure if there are some other performance improvements done or not. But that aside I think the most simple answer to “why bother” is to sell watches. By adding some hand work and presumably bring the watch back to proper operation, there is some added value over just sticking a vintage movement in a case, and you can charge good money for that.

This sort of thing won’t appeal to the hardcore vintage collectors, but there will be a segment of the market that will like this sort of thing very much.

Sure, there must be some point for someone to do the work and for someone else to buy it. I was just rethorically asking what was the point for me. But of course I'm part of a minority (vintage lover) within a minority (mechanical watches users), most people who bother to pay any attention to watches would rather blue nails and côtes de genève than the original thing.
 
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I can definitely see that. But I also tend to think that those people don't really appreciate the Rg version over a standard 30T2. I agree that this person can do anything he wants with his property. I just think it's a shame to use these desirable movements. Just my subjective opinion.

If I go back to my original example, the Observatoire, these were expensive watches, bought by very knowledgeable collectors. I think for the most part (those that I spoke to anyway) they were very aware what these movements had been used for in the past (observatory trials, hence the name), so I'm not sure that the collector who would buy this watch would necessarily be someone who doesn't know or understand the significance of the Rg movement.
 
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If I go back to my original example, the Observatoire, these were expensive watches, bought by very knowledgeable collectors.

I see. I wasn't aware of this. I'm not on Facebook. 😀