Modifying vintage movements

Posts
2,552
Likes
3,662
I just recently came to know RGM and was surprised to find out he's based out of Lancaster which is not to far from me. Thinking about taking a trip out there and taking a tour if he is still doing them.
You may also enjoy the A.W.C.C. Watch museum in Columbia PA. I’ve spent a couple weekends there taking very basic watch classes.
 
Posts
13,459
Likes
52,945
I just recently came to know RGM and was surprised to find out he's based out of Lancaster which is not to far from me. Thinking about taking a trip out there and taking a tour if he is still doing them.
I own two ….Never visited but that would be fun.
 
Posts
531
Likes
3,214
I own two ….Never visited but that would be fun.

As Larry knows, I've used RGM to service my vintage watches and I have been to their location in Mt. Joy.

Roland Murphy - RGM - houses his business in a rehabilitated bank building. He's put the old built-in bank vault to good use.

I witnessed watchmakers at work and had a look at some of his custom watches. I've been tempted.

I did get to hold this one and a couple of others . . .

Chess-watch-ch-3.jpg

I've only been to Kauai once, but this custom watch he built for a lover of Kauai must be stunning "in the flesh."

M25+Kauai.jpg
Edited:
 
Posts
2,804
Likes
4,882
I don't think I would be bothered at all if he were using a common movement. Using the Rg seems unnecessary. They are not easy to find.
I had the same thought, but then I am not especially bothered by Kari Voutilainen's use of the Peseux 260, which are probably just as uncommon. Maybe the rub is that the Rg ended up in some very nice watches that would be nice to maintain/restore/repair, whereas the P260 is more of a workhorse that was used in a wide variety of applications (e.g. competition chronometers, vintage Breguet, DuBois).
 
Posts
3,998
Likes
9,015
Trying to put my finger in the distinctions compared to any brand using a not “in house” movement.

I suppose one distinction is the permission and commercial arrangement: a manufacturer purchases movements, and the movement seller agrees to let the movements be used in exchange for the purchase price.

Conversely, here Omega has no say in it.

But Omega also has no say when I sell one of their vintage watches here on OF. Or when a grey market dealer does same with a modern watch.

Seems to all come down to whether the folks repurposing the movements venture into somehow misrepresenting the nature of the watch or it’s relationship to Omega. That seems a pretty easy needle to thread.
 
Posts
29,115
Likes
75,242
Trying to put my finger in the distinctions compared to any brand using a not “in house” movement.

The primary distinction is that these are discontinued movements, rather than current production. The supply is limited both for making new watches using them, and for using them for keeping the original vintage watches going.

The gist of the question is really the competing interests of these two things, and what the Omega collectors feelings are regarding this.
 
Posts
358
Likes
608
So many parallels to draw from, the automotive industry foremost.
Whether hot rodding a car or just having the engine ported and balanced all is fair game. Why are watches different?

I think the underlying ethical issue is that the ‘reformed’ product should not be sold as an original or with the intention that this is factory original.
 
Posts
9,596
Likes
27,688
I suppose style is quite personal, so I'm more interested in what people think about the practice in general, and if there are any who think this is a bad idea.
Cheers, Al

I'd say that regarding these particular watches, I think it is a shame that they use scarce movements which could otherwise act as donors for rare, cosmetically original watches. Had it been a "standard" 30mm movement, I would be much less opposed.
 
Posts
5,081
Likes
15,684
These guys seem to be doing well with modifying and re-casing pocket watch movements. They seem to mostly work with size 16 watches, which tend to be a bit big for most wrists IMO. Not sure what the state of the original cases were, what became of them, or if they can be reused later on - and that’s a little troubling.

https://www.frettclockworks.com/shop

 
Posts
29,115
Likes
75,242
I'd say that regarding these particular watches, I think it is a shame that they use scarce movements which could otherwise act as donors for rare, cosmetically original watches. Had it been a "standard" 30mm movement, I would be much less opposed.

I actually expected this reaction more than has been expressed in this thread. Although this has been on my mind a while, what prompted me posting this yesterday was a discussion on another forum where several watchmakers all chimed in that they would never do such a thing, because their goal was only preservation and restoration, not modification.

For me personally, once you buy something, it's yours. If you want to modify it, or smash it with a hammer, that's your choice. As long as it's not something museum worthy, and you aren't modding it to deceive anyone, then I'm quite okay with it, even though it's not something that I see myself doing personally.

Someone mentioned cars, and car analogies are done to death on watch forums, usually in an unsatisfactory way. But here I think it has merit. There are three types of car restorations....

The frame off Concours type restoration, that makes things cosmetically perfect, but maintains originality - matching serial numbers and all that sort of thing.

Then there are resto-mods, where they are restored and souped up at the same time, taking some artistic license.

Lastly there are restorations that are mostly mechanical/safety related, while leaving the aesthetic of the car intact, rust, faded paint, and all that is not corrected, but stabilized. This approach is fairly new in cars compared to the others at least.

I think most (not all) vintage collectors here have their watches done in the last category, so patina is maintained, no refinishing, no changing crowns, pushers, etc., just servicing the movement to get it functioning correctly.

Some want their vintage watches to look new, so they get more of the Conours style treatment.

These modified movement watches are the resto-mods in my view.

Cheers, Al
 
Posts
9,596
Likes
27,688
I actually expected this reaction more than has been expressed in this thread. Although this has been on my mind a while, what prompted me posting this yesterday was a discussion on another forum where several watchmakers all chimed in that they would never do such a thing, because their goal was only preservation and restoration, not modification.

For me personally, once you buy something, it's yours. If you want to modify it, or smash it with a hammer, that's your choice. As long as it's not something museum worthy, and you aren't modding it to deceive anyone, then I'm quite okay with it, even though it's not something that I see myself doing personally.

Someone mentioned cars, and car analogies are done to death on watch forums, usually in an unsatisfactory way. But here I think it has merit. There are three types of car restorations....

The frame off Concours type restoration, that makes things cosmetically perfect, but maintains originality - matching serial numbers and all that sort of thing.

Then there are resto-mods, where they are restored and souped up at the same time, taking some artistic license.

Lastly there are restorations that are mostly mechanical/safety related, while leaving the aesthetic of the car intact, rust, faded paint, and all that is not corrected, but stabilized. This approach is fairly new in cars compared to the others at least.

I think most (not all) vintage collectors here have their watches done in the last category, so patina is maintained, no refinishing, no changing crowns, pushers, etc., just servicing the movement to get it functioning correctly.

Some want their vintage watches to look new, so they get more of the Conours style treatment.

These modified movement watches are the resto-mods in my view.

Cheers, Al

Don't get me wrong, I am not too upset about it and I would be happy to see one of the modded watches in the wild, but I would rather see the movement used to keep old ones alive. The workmanship is probably good (I am not competent enough to judge that) and it is a tried and tested concept, but why did they have to use that particular movement? Since the work is mainly cosmetic, wouldn't a more common movement be as suitable? That said, I don't know how sought after the chronometer-specific parts really are, so I may be drawing conclusions too fast 😀

Re. the resto-mod/concours discussion, I guess that not too many would be upset if a 70s VW Beetle frame and engine was made into a beach buggy, but if it was a 60s Alfa Giulia that was made into a similar kit car, feelings would probably differ.
 
Posts
29,115
Likes
75,242
Re. the resto-mod/concours discussion, I guess that not too many would be upset if a 70s VW Beetle frame and engine was made into a beach buggy, but if it was a 60s Alfa Giulia that was made into a similar kit car, feelings would probably differ.

Certainly, that's one reason why I posted the Rg movement first. If someone were to "mod" this:



It won't be seen as the same cultural loss as this was:



😉
 
Posts
2,399
Likes
6,935
Well, the RG version of the 30T2 is not exactly rare. Is it that much of a crime to humanity to modify a few...?

 
Posts
116
Likes
66
..................................

Re. the resto-mod/concours discussion, I guess that not too many would be upset if a 70s VW Beetle frame and engine was made into a beach buggy, but if it was a 60s Alfa Giulia that was made into a similar kit car, feelings would probably differ.

If you were an Alfa fan 😀
 
Posts
2,008
Likes
3,386
I always had a desire to one day do the opposite, take like an Omega CK2852 Constellation piepan with a flogged out Cal 501 and resto-mod it with a Cal 8900 to have the high power reserve, modern accuracy etc in a vintage package. It’s an interesting idea upgrading a vintage one though, one thing that jumps to mind is that Omega themselves were making movements in the 1990s and 2000s in the Louis Brand collection that were perpetual calendars based on the ancient Calibre 700 series ultra thin movement from the mid 1960s by adding a piggyback module and skeletonization.

Omega also released those Calibre 30T2 based tourbillon observatory chronometer watches in around 1987 (mainly to annoy AP and make them sad) by refinishing them to some degree and pulling them out of retirement after 40+ years.

Driving the car analogy further down the road, this idea is similar to classic cars having their worn engines swapped out for the latest technology in the form of an electric motor. A bit like these E types https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/jaguars-e-type-zero-only-classic-ev-you-will-ever-need (though these were newly built versions of classic vehicles). Could this start happening more with movements such as the 321, as parts become impossible to get hold of? Not that I’m not suggesting sticking a quartz movement in an Ed White, that would be sacrilegious 😲
 
Posts
8,333
Likes
59,661
I liked this Weiss from day one. Even more after reading about the company and Mr. Weiss.

Workhorse of a PW movement with parts to be found if necessary plus handsome esthetics.

So, nail the esthetics and choose a movement that can be easily serviced and has easily available parts.

 
Posts
116
Likes
66
There is a lot of symmetry between cars and watches, whether vintage or modern. An a lot between their respective owners.
 
Posts
29,115
Likes
75,242
Well, the RG version of the 30T2 is not exactly rare. Is it that much of a crime to humanity to modify a few...?

Errrr...that’s a completely different movement...