Lemania-Omega Speedymoon trials and tribulations

airansun · Mar 27, 2018

I bought a Lemania powered moonphase watch in an Omega case, with Omega hands and face, from an eBay seller in France. The sellers photos were less than ideal. But I could tell that the face was a luminova Omega black moonphase without metal rings around the subdials, a genuine service dial replacement from the late 80’s.

The movement was a Lemania moonphase that had been ‘tuned’ and adjusted by Schwartz Etienne. I understood that I was taking a risk.

On its way to me, the package ‘disappeared’ from all postal tracking, somewhere between leaving France and formally appearing in the US. Scheduled to arrive today, I received an email notice late this morning from USPS that the package was now scheduled to be delivered tomorrow. Forty five minutes later, a mailman showed up with the package.

He apologized to me repeatedly for the condition of the package. I admit I was heart broken. It looked like either the watch had been crushed or stolen from inside.

Damn! This couldn’t be worse, I thought. I was wrong.

As I stripped away the cardboard, I discovered that the inside packaging was wet, quite wet, although there was no sign of moisture on the outside of the package.

At this point, my heart was in my mouth.

I finally pulled it out.

It started running very easily.

The back cover was on horrendously tight, which explains both the damage to the inside back cover and the complete lack of any moisture inside.

Here’s an Omega 1866 movement for comparison

You can see all the differences between the modern face on the right and the service dial on the left.
An original Speedymoon dial would be in tritium and all the date numbers would face inward.

Oh, and my moon has a face, as did some Speedymoons but no subsequent Speedmaster Moonphases.

I separately found the proper band.

Finally, a group portrait of the family

(I haven’t been winding the white gold moonphase.)

I’ll bring it in for service shortly. In the meantime:

So far keeping good time.
Oh, and what’d it cost? USD 2975. I think I did okay. I also think I lucked out. To me anyway, an interesting piece.

So whadda you guys think?

ostneb · Mar 27, 2018

Great watch, happy to hear it ended well! Those pictures of the packaging had me cringing!

Archer · Mar 27, 2018

Looks like the movement has seen moisture at one point - black marks on the hammer and part in that area look like rust that's been cleaned up. Certainly an interesting franken...

gemini4 · Mar 27, 2018

“An original Speedymoon dial would be in tritium and all the date numbers would face inward”

Yes indeed.

Ref 345.0809 SpeedieMoon

akshayluc420 · Mar 27, 2018

What a beautiful piece! That packaging really took quite a beating, I wonder what on earth it was subjected to in order to arrive in that condition!

Please forgive my ignorance, I have a couple of newb questions. The tuning by Schwartz Etienne, how does it affect the performance of the watch? Is it tuned to COSC accuracy specs? Any other benefits?

Also, you posted some rather nice pictures of the movements, but my sadly untrained eyes do not know what's to be noticed and distinguished between the two. 🙁 What should we be paying attention to, and how would that affect the value of the piece (horologically as well as monetarily)?

Th watch looks quite handsome on the brown strap! 😀

Thanks!

Archer · Mar 28, 2018

akshayluc420
Please forgive my ignorance, I have a couple of newb questions. The tuning by Schwartz Etienne, how does it affect the performance of the watch? Is it tuned to COSC accuracy specs? Any other benefits?

Schwartz Etienne is a brand from the early 1900's that was "revived" in the 2000's. They now make their own movements but clearly there was a time when they bought movements from others, such as Lemania - this movement is marked Lemania on the movement plate. So Someone has taken a Lemania movement from some unknown Schwartz Etienne chronograph model, and stuck a Speedmaster service dial and hands on it, and put it into an Omega case.

I doubt there was any special tuning done to this watch when it was in it's original Schwartz Etienne configuration. It's just the name on the movement whoever put this watch together found. Being a franken watch, the value of it as a collector's piece is not much - sum of the parts really. Certainly a nice enough watch to wear though.

Cheers, Al

Larry S · Mar 28, 2018

Even at $2500. Shipping through the post isn’t just a bad idea it’s a terribleness idea.

airansun · Mar 28, 2018

Archer
I doubt there was any special tuning done to this watch when it was in it's original Schwartz Etienne configuration.

Makes no difference that the movement’s been ‘adjusted to five positions’?

Archer · Mar 28, 2018

airansun
Makes no difference that the movement’s been ‘adjusted to five positions’?

Didn't see that, but in reality maybe - maybe not. I have no idea what their tolerances were. Omega released a COSC version of the movement, so it can be done, but we have no idea what this particular brand did in terms of bringing the watch to a specific tolerance.

Have your watchmaker give you timing information when you get the service done - preferably in 6 positions at full wind, then 6 positions 24 hours after full wind. Would be interested to see the results.

Cheers, Al

Foo2rama · Mar 28, 2018

Archer
Schwartz Etienne is a brand from the early 1900's that was "revived" in the 2000's. They now make their own movements but clearly there was a time when they bought movements from others, such as Lemania - this movement is marked Lemania on the movement plate. So Someone has taken a Lemania movement from some unknown Schwartz Etienne chronograph model, and stuck a Speedmaster service dial and hands on it, and put it into an Omega case.

Cheers, Al

About the date. It’s a 17 jewel so that’s means the movements pre 1989 or so right?

Archer · Mar 28, 2018

Foo2rama
It’s a 17 jewel

Depends if you are looking at the text on the chronograph bridge, or the actual number of jewels. This one has 18 in reality...

Foo2rama · Mar 28, 2018

Archer
Depends if you are looking at the text on the chronograph bridge, or the actual number of jewels. This one has 18 in reality...

Doh! looking at it on mobile and the darker looking jewel threw me off. That narrows the production to the change over in 89? My Sinn dates to that period as well as the Speedies with 18 jewels but marked 17.

Archer · Mar 28, 2018

Foo2rama
Doh! looking at it on mobile and the darker looking jewel threw me off. That narrows the production to the change over in 89? My Sinn dates to that period as well as the Speedies with 18 jewels but marked 17.

Maybe. I would never call something like this as definitive, in particular on a watch that is already a franken with a mix of parts. But generally when you order a new coupling yoke, it only now comes with the jewel, so it's certainly possible the yoke is from another watch, or was possibly replaced at some point and that added the extra jewel.

Cheers, Al

airansun · Mar 28, 2018

After close examination, the movement more closely resembles the Omega 866 movement than the 1866.

Archer · Mar 28, 2018

airansun
After close examination, the movement more closely resembles the Omega 866 movement than the 1866.

Can you please elaborate on what specific things have lead to this conclusion?

airansun · Mar 28, 2018

Archer
Can you please elaborate on what specific things have lead to this conclusion?

I’ll give it a shot.

Top picture is the Lemania movement. I’ve marked five spots in red, with numbers, to show five ways that the movement more closely resembles the 866, which is the second movement, from the 1866, which is the third movement.

Lemania

866

1866

Of course, the Lemania does not have the delrin brake that only the 866 has. And, I’m pointing out minor things.

Al, I fully expect that you’ll be able to demonstrate that I’m mistaken. But, nothing ventured, nothing gained. If I don’t take the risk of putting out there what I think I’ve observed, then I lose the chance to get educated.

So, what am I missing?

Archer · Mar 28, 2018

airansun
So, what am I missing?

I don't think you are missing anything, but possibly reading too much into some small variances that aren't really related to the movement being more related to an 866 or than an 1866. Small manufacturing changes are made to movements all the time for productivity gains in manufacturing or other reasons, so these aren't of any real significance.

For example the change in the stud carrier where the hole goes from triangular to round was made during the life of the 861 movement, so before the added 1 at the start of the movement number. This corresponds with a difference balance with a different balance spring (changes made to the terminal curve of the spring for better timekeeping), and you can't mix the old spring with the new stud carrier that has the round hole...so if you need a new balance both parts have to be changed. This isn't specific to later movements as your photos are leading you to think.

Speaking strictly of the Omega 866 and 1866, when you look at all the parts in these 2 movements, only 2 of them are specific to the 1866, and the rest have their origin in other movements from the same lineage, right back to the Cal. 320 and right up to the 866.

Cheers, Al

airansun · Mar 28, 2018

Thanks Al! Always in your debt.

airansun · May 12, 2018

Got the watch back from my watchmaker today. 😎

Top slip is before and bottom is after service:

So, @Archer : what do you think about the ‘adjusted’ claim on the movement?

Archer · May 12, 2018

airansun
Top slip is before and bottom is after service:

So, @Archer : what do you think about the ‘adjusted’ claim on the movement?

Well, what I see here is a little disturbing to be honest...

First, the timing machine is not set to the correct lift angle - it should be 50 degrees and not the 52 it's set for. This means that the amplitude numbers displayed appear higher than the actual amplitude, by about 12 degrees.

Second, if the numbers on the lower slip are after the service, and taken at full wind with the chronograph off as they should be, then I'm not sure the service was done well. The amplitude numbers should not be lower than before the service certainly so that is a big red flag for me given what I can see. If we look at the dial up amplitude, it was showing 283 before service, and is now 258. If you take into account the error of the lift angle, it's actually only 246, which is far too low for horizontal full wind amplitude on a freshly serviced watch.

Now to your point about the 5 position adjustment, again I have no idea what this brand required on this watch, so I can't say if that meets their standards or not. Having said that, the Delta reading (difference between the slowest and fastest position) is 10.3 seconds after service, and that is a good result, despite the amplitude issues. Omega requires that the 1861 family (1861, 1863, 1866) should have a Delta at full wind no more than 15 seconds, but measured over only 3 positions. So this being measured over 5 positions exceeds that standard easily.

But to put this into perspective, I just finished servicing a Cal. 863 and the Delta over 6 positions was just 6.6 seconds, so adding in one more position and still better than what you have here. So clearly these movements are capable of much better timing than the standards require, so the numbers you have for the Delta are good, but far from being something truly extraordinary.

Hopefully your watchmaker offers a warranty on his work.

Cheers, Al