Lemania-Omega Speedymoon trials and tribulations

airansun · May 12, 2018

Al:

I noticed the amplitude issue myself but assumed I didn’t understand.

I wish you lived nearby me and had availability too.

I’m going to run it for a few days, to see what I observe, before I go back.

You’re a watch god. Thank you!

ChrisN · May 12, 2018

Archer
Well, what I see here is a little disturbing to be honest...

First, the timing machine is not set to the correct lift angle - it should be 50 degrees and not the 52 it's set for. This means that the amplitude numbers displayed appear higher than the actual amplitude, by about 12 degrees.

Second, if the numbers on the lower slip are after the service, and taken at full wind with the chronograph off as they should be, then I'm not sure the service was done well. The amplitude numbers should not be lower than before the service certainly so that is a big red flag for me given what I can see. If we look at the dial up amplitude, it was showing 283 before service, and is now 258. If you take into account the error of the lift angle, it's actually only 246, which is far too low for horizontal full wind amplitude on a freshly serviced watch.

Now to your point about the 5 position adjustment, again I have no idea what this brand required on this watch, so I can't say if that meets their standards or not. Having said that, the Delta reading (difference between the slowest and fastest position) is 10.3 seconds after service, and that is a good result, despite the amplitude issues. Omega requires that the 1861 family (1861, 1863, 1866) should have a Delta at full wind no more than 15 seconds, but measured over only 3 positions. So this being measured over 5 positions exceeds that standard easily.

But to put this into perspective, I just finished servicing a Cal. 863 and the Delta over 6 positions was just 6.6 seconds, so adding in one more position and still better than what you have here. So clearly these movements are capable of much better timing than the standards require, so the numbers you have for the Delta are good, but far from being something truly extraordinary.

Hopefully your watchmaker offers a warranty on his work.

Cheers, Al

Very clearly explained, Al. What did you think to the before amplitudes (first picture dated 28 March) where the verticals are higher than the horizontals?

Not stripping the coupling yoke is not going to help with the after amplitudes either... Only about 220-225 degrees in vertical, if it's at full wind, certainly looks like a problem.

To @airansun , did your watchmaker bill you for a new Omega mainspring? Could it be he used a weaker generic?

Cheers, Chris

airansun · May 12, 2018

ChrisN
did your watchmaker bill you for a new Omega mainspring?

Nope. This makes me very sad.

I am SO tired of questionable watchmaking. 🙁

airansun · May 12, 2018

@Archer :

What should the amplitudes be? 320’s? I know it’s a stupid question, but now I’m feeling stupid, so it’s appropriate.

The 145.022-69 he serviced returned no better results.

I guess I’m not using him anymore?

ChrisN · May 12, 2018

airansun
Nope. This makes me very sad.

I am SO tired of questionable watchmaking. 🙁

We'll, he doesn't have to use a new mainspring at all if the old one is in good condition. My instructors regularly didn't but, from the point of view of not getting watches returned because a mainspring breaks after a short time, I prefer to fit a new one. It just reduces the risk in my opinion (and I think Al also recommended that to me).

Your second watch doesn't look good either but I'll let Al comment. And it's not really not something you should feel stupid about as it takes time and training to understand all of this.

Good luck and let's hope these are not full wind/chrono off figures and all is well, Chris

airansun · May 12, 2018

All of us have these learning experiences as we’ve gotten into the deeper waters, I get that. It’s the only way to learn, but it’s heart breaking from time to time. The watchmaker was recommended here at OF by a few members, so I had hopes.

For a watch collector, there is NOTHING* more important than knowing a good watchmaker. They are so hard to find. And those that are good have long lines. I had stopped acquiring new watches for a long time because of this problem.

I’m just drained. I’ve had more pain than pleasure from this ‘hobby’ lately.

I spent the week negotiating with difficult-to-reach FedEx agents in their Memphis hub, trying to get the release from Customs of two separate packages, watches from the U.K., from OF members. With the help of @Nathan1967 and @Sharp (thank you again, gentlemen!) from their ends, they were finally released Thursday and Friday. I hope to see them both Monday morning. Coincidentally, another watch, bought on eBay and sent by overnight express, has been lost by USPS for two weeks so far. That eBayer did not insure the package, so he’ll ultimately be out the money if it doesn’t show up soon.

I was looking forward all week to the pleasure of getting some of my watches back from service today. Sigh.

Anyway, vent over.

I put the 1450 bracelet on the Lemania-Omega Speedymoon that I sourced on eBay months ago. Had to file down the 808 end links a little. The link pins are cotter pins for goodness sake. Worse than pins in sleeves or those tiny screw caps. Anyway, looks nice I think.

Maybe it’ll all be okay after all.

___________________________________________
* Yes, I could learn to do it myself, but I know myself well enough to recognize that it’s just not realistic. I’m jealous of those of you who have the knowledge, the tools, the time and the space, let alone the patience.

airansun · May 12, 2018

Changed the thread name to be more descriptive of its contents as a whole. 😒

airansun · May 12, 2018

Oh yeah, what about the spade ended chrono hand! 🙄 Whole time, nobody pointed that out.

😎

Archer · May 13, 2018

ChrisN
Very clearly explained, Al. What did you think to the before amplitudes (first picture dated 28 March) where the verticals are higher than the horizontals?

Definitely odd, but given the after results were so bad I didn't bother commenting on that aspect.

airansun
@Archer :

What should the amplitudes be? 320’s? I know it’s a stupid question, but now I’m feeling stupid, so it’s appropriate.

The 145.022-69 he serviced returned no better results.

I guess I’m not using him anymore?

Just to be clear, there is no officially required amplitude at full wind - Omega only calls out for a minimum amplitude measurement 24 hours after full wind, and for the 1861 the amplitude must not drop below 190 degrees in any position - the lowest amplitudes are usually in the vertical positions.

But if you look at enough watches, you quickly see that full wind dial up amplitudes should be much higher than what these watches are getting.

320 would be a bit high and at risk of rebanking, but 290's or 300 would be fine. I would even say fully assembled that 280's is still plenty, but 240's is certainly not. I just went back and looked at the last dozen or so Speedmasters that I've serviced, and only one was below 290 full wind horizontal, and that was in the 280's.

As for finding watchmakers, I know it's not easy - my inbox tells me that every day with the requests I get. I also had someone email me recently who was designing a web site for collectors to look for watchmakers - it would match up the sort of specialties that the watchmaker might have with the needs of the customer. This person was just frustrated like many are trying to find good watchmakers, so he thought he would put it up on a site for all to use, carefully selecting watchmakers to add to the system - no cost to either the customer or watchmaker. Sounds like a great idea, but I emailed back to explain that I am already turning away multiple people every day, so having my name on that site would only mean that I spend more time answering emails telling people I can't service their watch, rather than spending time actually working on watches.

Good watchmakers are usually not looking for work, because they are already swamped. I know you mentioned in the other thread in the vintage Omega section that you don't like having watches out for service for 2 months, but selecting a watchmaker on price or how quickly they turn the watch around is not necessarily a good strategy.

Unfortunately I'm only one person and the last time I tried to keep up with demand, it nearly killed me. There's only so many I can service.

Cheers, Al

airansun · May 13, 2018

Archer
I know you mentioned in the other thread in the vintage Omega section that you don't like having watches out for service for 2 months, but selecting a watchmaker on price or how quickly they turn the watch around is not necessarily a good strategy.

This watchmaker was the two-month guy. At least he gives me these printouts and the photos of the watches in pieces. These were the first two watches I got back from him. Btw, the Lemania-Omega Speedymoon gained about four seconds in about 24 hours, worn on the wrist.

The other gentlemen, in his mid 70’s, has already serviced two older wristwatches (the Longines and late ‘20s Omega I’ve posted previously), a Frodsham marine chronometer from the 1850’s, the Hamilton 4992B I’ve posted, as well as my Speedmasters 145.022-74, 105-012-66CB and 145.012-68, all in the same timeframe as it took to get the first two (the Lemania-Omega and the 145.022-69) out of the two-month guy. The 66CB went back for the continued stopping problem yesterday; I brought it to him in the exact state it stopped yesterday at 3am. He’ll have it back to me later this week, certainly working better than before. The watches he services come back beautiful and accurate to within a few seconds a day, but no print out or even written receipt. He is half the price of the guy who takes two months. I think I will continue to use him more, even though there’s no printout or written receipt.

I wasn’t seriously soliciting you @Archer , because I can only imagine how busy you must be. And I hate mailing watches away for service, for reason you can easily guess.

So, how about this question: what’s a reasonable timing machine I could get to check this stuff at home? I’ve got a fair amount of money in watches and would not be above spending a thousand bucks for something that would allow me to verify for myself how well serviced my watches return to me. I’ve been on the Witschi site and am having trouble making heads or tails of it, apart from no prices being posted.

@Archer : thank you again and as always, I am in your debt. PM me if you’re ever in the SF Bay Area and I’ll happily buy you a meal and a libation.

For the good of the order and because this threads needs another photo, here’s, from left to right, my -67, -69 and 145.012-68 this morning. Nobody stopped overnight. The -67 hasn’t been serviced yet. Both the -68 and -69 came back from service yesterday, the former from the older guy and the latter from the two-month guy.

Btw, notice that the -69’s dial is a little brown and the bezel is a little blue. This was the watch I was going to scavenge at one point. Silly me.

Archer · May 14, 2018

airansun
This watchmaker was the two-month guy.

Two months is actually pretty quick - that was my point.

Cheers, Al

airansun · May 14, 2018

Archer
Two months is actually pretty quick

🙁 Two months can seem like forever. If I were I young man looking for a trade, I’d get into watchmaking. No question.

Good news: the Lemania-Omega has gained only 7 seconds in three days.

More good news: both FedEx packages from the U.K. arrived this morning with all contents intact. One mint 145.022-68 transition and one mint 105.003-65.

It’s a good day today.

Gotta love those casebacks.