Lange or Journe

mancio · Dec 30, 2019

Cozmopak
Yeah, can never predict future value. So much of the watch collecting conversation now revolves around predictions of future value, and that shouldn’t be the most important factor, but when spending this kind of money, it’s bound to creep up even for those who can afford it.

I love this watch:

Now I might have to take a hiatus for a few years to save up enough to purchase one, assuming they don’t go up in value!

That’s it! That’s the FP!
Despite the question of its value it is a incredible piece.

mz_cle · Dec 30, 2019

Both brands are beautiful, but if I had the free cash available, I would go for A. Lange & Söhne.

Langue frequently uses large dates as part of the dial design beyond a simple and small 3 or 6 window. I am notoriously forgetful of the date, and I rely on my watch or my (phone) calendar to remind me.

I love the Zeitwerk models and the Saxonia Datographs. Maybe 2020 will be a surprisingly good year? 😉

Cozmopak · Dec 30, 2019

mancio
That’s it! That’s the FP!
Despite the question of its value it is a incredible piece.

That Octa Reserve de Marche is the quintessence of the Journe brand to me. It epitomizes the Journe aesthetic. I’m still struggling to understand why the Chronometre Bleu has gained such popularity, but that’s just me. It’s a very attractive watch, no doubt, but I just love the Octa so much more. To each his own.

kilofinal · Dec 30, 2019

bazamu · Dec 30, 2019

Journe if solely based on aesthetics, Lange if technical merit is more important. The 1815 flyback chronograph in black is on my short list for 2020 if funds allow. The 1815 chrono movement is one of the most beautiful I've ever seen. (Images from Revolution)

Larry S · Dec 30, 2019

As we have discussed

ChicagoFrog
Journe if solely based on aesthetics, Lange if technical merit is more important. The 1815 flyback chronograph in black is on my short list for 2020 if funds allow. The 1815 chrono movement is one of the most beautiful I've ever seen. (Images from Revolution)

we need a bug eyed drooling Emoji...I too have thought liquidation to acquire one if these.

Cozmopak · Dec 30, 2019

Larry S
As we have discussed

we need a bug eyed drooling Emoji...I too have thought liquidation to acquire one if these.

That is crazy beautiful.

Cozmopak · Dec 30, 2019

ChicagoFrog
Journe if solely based on aesthetics, Lange if technical merit is more important. The 1815 flyback chronograph in black is on my short list for 2020 if funds allow. The 1815 chrono movement is one of the most beautiful I've ever seen. (Images from Revolution)

Is the Lange Sohne generally considered technically superior to Journe? Both brands seem to have loyal fanbases, maybe Journe more so, although there may be some element of blind loyalty.

sdre · Dec 30, 2019

F.p Journe for me. I think their sense of balance is slightly ahead of Lange.

Archer · Dec 31, 2019

FPJ is not a brand I follow, because the aesthetic does nothing for me personally (in particular I dislike the shape of the hands). I do know that for a time they had some quality issues, but I don't know of those are still ongoing.

ALS I like some things about, but not others. The L1 big date is not well executed in my view, but something simple from them would be my preference should I ever go there. Simple 3 hand 1815 would be something I would like, with clean lines. And it would not be a purchase that I would be concerned with resale value at all...

Cheers, Al

Chye · Dec 31, 2019

Very happy owner of a Lange 1815 Chronograph (2nd Gen).

While most collectors prefer the 1st Gen, 3rd Gen and Boutique Edition of the 1815 Chronograph, I much prefer the 2nd Gen’s simple and clean dial. So cool, even austere, very teutonic and representative of the brand as it instantly reminded me of those old vintage Lange pocket watches.

Even so, every now and then, I find myself fantasising about the possibility of adding the 1st Gen WG and PG version and the 3rd Gen Black dial WG versions to my collection. In any case, all of them come with the same breathtaking movement which has been described as a city by itself.

As for FP Journe, overall, I find its designs a lot more technical and avant-garde than that of Lange. A grey or gold Souveraine Chronometre Resonance would be my choice. One thing that does concern me is that of servicing - as an independent brand, I worry if I am able to get accessible and reliable service support.

Chye

Cozmopak · Dec 31, 2019

I have heard that servicing Journe takes longer than Lange. I believe they use proprietary screws that only they can open and they are a much smaller operation, obviously, so their turnaround times are longer. Can Lange watches be serviced by independent watchmakers?

I’ve started a thread on Rolexforums around the same subject, and have concluded that most Journe owners are slightly fanatical about their loyalty to the brand. Lots of words like art and genius being tossed around. There’s a certain defensiveness, too, that I feel from them. I’m not making any judgments, it’s just an observation, but a little off-putting.

Archer · Dec 31, 2019

Cozmopak
I have heard that servicing Journe takes longer than Lange. I believe they use proprietary screws that only they can open and they are a much smaller operation, obviously, so their turnaround times are longer. Can Lange watches be serviced by independent watchmakers?

The subject of service is a tricky one. I am not familiar enough with Journe to know what sort of service network they have and what policies they impose regarding parts. Likely no parts available for these, like most brands.

For ALS, they are part of the Richemont group, which has a long history of not selling parts to independent watchmakers. Even when Cartier settled a class action lawsuit over parts access in the US years ago, and promised to open up parts accounts to any watchmaker who wanted one, they made the application process so onerous that I think only 9 accounts were ever opened.

People often take great issue with Swatch not supplying parts, but in the big picture they are better than the other major conglomerates in this regard. So that's a long way of saying "no" to your question about independent watchmakers servicing ALS. I'm sure there are some that do it, but this is something I don't typically do unless I have access to parts, since the last thing I want to do is get part way through a service and find I need a part that I can't get. I'm sure some would just put the worn parts back in, but that's not good practice of course...

dsacks30 · Dec 31, 2019

Cozmopak
I have heard that servicing Journe takes longer than Lange. I believe they use proprietary screws that only they can open and they are a much smaller operation, obviously, so their turnaround times are longer. Can Lange watches be serviced by independent watchmakers?

There is one fellow in New York City who has a license from Lange to act as their service center here. I believe that shortens the wait time, as he repairs Langes in his shop in New York and doesn’t have to ship them out. He is generally very well regarded. You can read about him here:

https://watchesbysjx.com/2016/06/in...tchmaker-extraordinaire-in-new-york-city.html

Cozmopak · Dec 31, 2019

dsacks30
There is one fellow in New York City who has a license from Lange to act as their service center here. I believe that shortens the wait time, as he repairs Langes in his shop in New York and doesn’t have to ship them out. He is generally very well regarded. You can read about him here:

https://watchesbysjx.com/2016/06/in...tchmaker-extraordinaire-in-new-york-city.html

Excellent. That also cuts down on the shipping costs as I believe there are tariff considerations when shipping watches to Germany.

budgewink · Dec 31, 2019

Either would be fine thanks!

Cozmopak · Jan 2, 2020

A member on RolexForums made an interesting comment recently regarding yearly production numbers, albeit likely unverifiable, I assume:

Omega 700,000 watches, 700 employees = 1,000 watches per employee.
Rolex 800,000 watches, 2,800 employees. = 285 watches per employee.
Patek Phillipe 62,000 watches, 1,600 employees = 38.75 watches per employee.
FP Journe 800 watches, 50 employees = 16 watches per employee
A Lange 5,000 watches, 770 employees = 6.5 watches per employee.

Also, this statistic, if true, does not specify the number of watchmakers, simply the number of employees; however, I’ve been doing quite a bit of research into the Lange line, and the degree of finishing on their watches appears unique to my eye, exceeding that of Patek even. Perhaps I’m wrong, but the above statistic does seem to possess a kernel of truth.

Archer · Jan 2, 2020

Cozmopak
A member on RolexForums made an interesting comment recently regarding yearly production numbers, albeit likely unverifiable, I assume:

Omega 700,000 watches, 700 employees = 1,000 watches per employee.
Rolex 800,000 watches, 2,800 employees. = 285 watches per employee.
Patek Phillipe 62,000 watches, 1,600 employees = 38.75 watches per employee.
FP Journe 800 watches, 50 employees = 16 watches per employee
A Lange 5,000 watches, 770 employees = 6.5 watches per employee.

Also, this statistic, if true, does not specify the number of watchmakers, simply the number of employees; however, I’ve been doing quite a bit of research into the Lange line, and the degree of finishing on their watches appears unique to my eye, exceeding that of Patek even. Perhaps I’m wrong, but the above statistic does seem to possess a kernel of truth.

Did this person state sources?

Cozmopak · Jan 2, 2020

Archer
Did this person state sources?

I asked him for it, no response yet.

S.Song · Jan 14, 2020

Cozmopak
Yeah, can never predict future value. So much of the watch collecting conversation now revolves around predictions of future value, and that shouldn’t be the most important factor, but when spending this kind of money, it’s bound to creep up even for those who can afford it.

I love this watch:

Now I might have to take a hiatus for a few years to save up enough to purchase one, assuming they don’t go up in value!

Stunning early FPJ. 38mm Brass movement and after the last auction season where a few brass models went through the roof, this watch is following suit...

These early Journes with the yellow dials are really beautiful watches, and in photographs, they do not look nearly as good. In real life, under the sunlight its grainy and the yellow really shimmers. Also, early FPJ watches with these dials tend to age and have patina/tarnishing which some like. (QC at FPJ wasn't quite there at the start lol).

Also, now the only sizes available are 40 and 42. No matter what, stay away from the 42 as it is just proportionally all wrong. Same 20mm strap but upsized, not great. The old 38mms like the one you posted is super and sits so well on the wrist.