Why are high-end service intervals so short?

Rado63 · Jul 15, 2021

MTROIS
I was actually wondering if it is indeed the case that a watch not worn at all will need less service than a watch regularly worn.
In essence, is it a bit similar to a car that is never driven and which gaskets and other rubber lines will dry out (in this case all the oils and greases will age prematurely without any shear stress or friction), or not at all, and a watch left untouched for several years will perform just like the day it was put down?

I think the quote from Rolex answers your question. Watches with greater sealing from all elements and watches that see less usage could reach the ten year interval for servicing. Watches that get everyday wear or have less resistance from the elements, need service even if they are keeping time.

Archer · Jul 16, 2021

Geezer
Hi Archer,

I am a watchmaker, although in recent years I teach at a Swiss watchmaking school with some restoration work on the side.

You are right about modern oils leaving very little residue, and I should probably have used the term "disappearing" instead of "drying" of oils.

My watchmaking experience is somewhat biased towards relatively delicate and thin high-end movements. Like the JLC 920 (or VC, AP or PP versions), movements such as the Patek 240, F. Piguet movements etc. In recent years I have worked on ETA products, and these are very different animals. A lot of these movements can run dry without any clear performance issues.

My experience from yours is a bit different regarding the disappearing of escapement oil. Even with the use of epilames, I have encountered certain high end movements that were running without oil on the escapement after only a few years (and sometimes barely out of warranty). Of course, it is very difficult to determine clear reasons for this, and this is still pretty anecdotal, so I will leave it at that.

Oil retention on the escapement has been much improved with epilame coatings and improved lubricants such as 9415 grease, however it is still a weak spot relatively speaking. In recent years, many watch companies have invested in silicium escapements as they have the potential of being oil-free. Although to be fair this might be as much a marketing exercise. Although not really a new idea, Seiko has been using escapement wheels with improved teeth design (tiered tips) for oil retention:

The escapement continues to be a component where oiling can be very crucial for achieving an acceptable amplitude and good performance.

As a sidenote, I have always found it somewhat interesting that many so called oil-free escapements such as the Co-Axial, or silicium escapements such as the PP Pulsomax, continue to be oiled in production or during service. I guess the little friction there is, still does damage. Maybe you can shed more light on this, as I have little experience with the Co-Axial escapement myself.

Thanks to the link to your post about your Speedmaster. I think it well highlights how the informed perspective of a watchmaker is quite different from the normal users experience.

Thanks for the discussion!

Thanks for the reply, and good to see another watchmaker on the site.

With regards to oils, they degrade in a specific way, and not the way most people think of. When water evaporates, the rate of evaporation is air-boundry layer regulated, so things like surface area, wind, temperature all have great effects on evaporation rates. For oils, these are diffusion regulated products, so it's a different process and not exactly like you would think of simple evaporation. It depends a great deal on the components used in the oil, and lighter components of the mix will diffuse first, leaving the heavier components behind.

Since you teach at a Swiss school, are you ware of any studies or papers on this for watch oils? As an engineer (before becoming a full time watchmaker) I was aware of these things from my time developing lubrication schedules for industrial machinery, but the information I've been able to find since doesn't apply to watch oils. In fact the most common references to this are with regards to oil spills and cleaning those up. So if you have anything, please let me know. It is a bit odd to me that with lubrication being so critical, there is so little information out there on the topic, other than "my preferred oils are better than your preferred oils" arguments.

Speaking of epilame, I found that when Moebius made a formula change to the solvents in the 8981 (Fix-O-Drop) a few years ago, it became much less reliable. After having a few watches return with the 9415 dried up and looking almost crystalline (and nothing changed in the way I did things) I started looking for an alternative, and now use Episurf-Neo from Surfactis. So if you haven't tried this, I would suggest doing so. It is much less volatile than FOD is, so it won't become too strong as quickly, and it's honestly much easier to use. Dip the escape wheel for 45 seconds, blow off the excess with a blower, and let it dry under a cover. Same with the pallet fork, just dipping the stones. The escapement issues with lubrication drying up disappeared when I made this switch.

The only escapement I know of that truly runs without oil, and without any problems, is the Sinn Diapal escapement. It is a traditional Swiss lever, and the name came from the early days when they were going to use diamonds for the pallet stones. But in the end it's a normal pallet fork, and a specially coated escape wheel. No oil is used, and you don't clean the escape wheel in the cleaning machine - it is just cleaned at the bench with Rodico (!), per instructions from Sinn:

The co-axial always needed oil, despite the claims made by George Daniels. Roger Smith basically has admitted this, and he still uses oil on his "much improved" version of the co-axial escapement. There is a lot of misinformation out there on co-axials, but aside from your experiences, I can't say I've heard that escapement going dry before the rest of the watch needs servicing is a common thing. I don't believe I've ever had a watch come in that the only thing wrong with it was a dry escapement. This includes workhorse movements, and small and thin movements too...

However most of my work seems to be chronographs these days, and most are vintage.

Cheers, Al

chaw6125 · Jul 16, 2021

I know the conversation moved on a bit from when OP originally posted this, but my PP watchmaker said most services require all of the train wheels to be replaced as so many of them live thier whole life on a winder. Although I'm sure some of the cost if for the honour of owning (current keeper) a PP.

I always really appreciate Archers input and detailed pictures too. Thank you so much.

Geezer · Jul 18, 2021

Nice 16-250! That hairspring can be a real pain but it's a pretty good movement!

Unfortunately, I am not aware of any studies related to watch oils specifically. Although I am sure there was an interest in this field in the past, I am not so sure about it today. But I will keep my eyes open.

Thanks for the suggestion on Surfactis and I appreciate your thoughts on the escapements.

Archer
Thanks for the reply, and good to see another watchmaker on the site.

With regards to oils, they degrade in a specific way, and not the way most people think of. When water evaporates, the rate of evaporation is air-boundry layer regulated, so things like surface area, wind, temperature all have great effects on evaporation rates. For oils, these are diffusion regulated products, so it's a different process and not exactly like you would think of simple evaporation. It depends a great deal on the components used in the oil, and lighter components of the mix will diffuse first, leaving the heavier components behind.

Since you teach at a Swiss school, are you ware of any studies or papers on this for watch oils? As an engineer (before becoming a full time watchmaker) I was aware of these things from my time developing lubrication schedules for industrial machinery, but the information I've been able to find since doesn't apply to watch oils. In fact the most common references to this are with regards to oil spills and cleaning those up. So if you have anything, please let me know. It is a bit odd to me that with lubrication being so critical, there is so little information out there on the topic, other than "my preferred oils are better than your preferred oils" arguments.