Transitional Polarouter/Polerouter Theory

Mazoue · Jan 12, 2020

Another potential transitional example currently on eBay.

This time a 20217-1. Serial 1'690'655.

It's a great shame that the crown has been replaced as that raises doubts about the originality of the watch but it does still have the original crystal.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rare-195...umper-138SS-Gerald-Genta-Vintage/283740010743

rustynuts · Jan 12, 2020

Stop posting watches I'm bidding on, ya bugger! 😉

rfordo · Jan 12, 2020

In regards to the theory, is there any consideration to, due to the name change, a higher rate or propensity to change the dial for one that says Polerouter like 'new' models at the time?

I wouldn't guess that UG ran a sort of recall program but may be upon the watch's first servicing it was more common to throw a Polerouter dial in?

It's worth considering that someone who bought a Polarouter might not view the A as some rare collectible as we do today.

Mazoue · Jan 12, 2020

rfordo
In regards to the theory, is there any consideration to, due to the name change, a higher rate or propensity to change the dial for one that says Polerouter like 'new' models at the time?

I wouldn't guess that UG ran a sort of recall program but may be upon the watch's first servicing it was more common to throw a Polerouter dial in?

It's worth considering that someone who bought a Polarouter might not view the A as some rare collectible as we do today.

That sounds completely plausible, thanks.

One common trait that supports the transitional theory is that the examples shown above all have relatively late serial numbers for Polarouters.

However I'm aware that there are some Polarouters with even later serials that have Polarouter dials, which would be consistent with your dial swap theory.

If the dial swap theory is correct then I think we would expect to see examples with early serial Polarouter cases and also some with the Polarouter specific narrow hour marker rings. I shall keep looking.

CafeRacer · Jan 13, 2020

PolAs were produced for something like 6 months in total - 1st and 2nd executions.
So, if dials were bring replaced for the "new thing", id probably expect to see that 1st execution replacements are just as common.

The vast majority of these "polerouter dials in polarouter cases" that ive come across have been 2nd execution Polas.
Ive also noticed the 2nd execution PolA dials seem to be pretty hammered, in general. Moreso than their 1st execution counterparts that ive seen anyway.
Perhaps they suffered some sort of manufacturing quality issue, and so they were more often replaced.
Just thinking out loud with more speculation to add to the pot 😀 ...

hejsam · Jan 30, 2020

I got this 20214-4 gold capped Polerouter, serial number starts with 1’683.

Does this mean this is an Polarouter case and confirm your theory?

The numbers on the back is hard to capture on photo but they are visiable by the eye!

Mazoue · Jan 30, 2020

hejsam
I got this 20214-4 gold capped Polerouter, serial number starts with 1’683.

Does this mean this is an Polarouter case and confirm your theory?

The numbers on the back is hard to capture on photo but they are visiable by the eye!

Thanks for the contribution.

Yes, definitely a Polarouter case. Along with the case reference, the biggest giveaway is the style of the case back. The later case backs are polygonal whereas these have a six-key case back.

A good candidate for the transitional theory as far as I can see.

hejsam · Jan 30, 2020

Mazoue
Thanks for the contribution.

Yes, definitely a Polarouter case. Along with the case reference, the biggest giveaway is the style of the case back. The later case backs are polygonal whereas these have a six-key case back.

A good candidate for the transitional theory as far as I can see.

Thanks and makes it a little more fun to own this if its and transitional model. Which year can this be manufactured considering the serial number 1’683?

Also I think I have read some other post from you where you state more difference than the obvious reference number and caseback. Something with the inner bezel and construcion of the case-glass?

And another question, does these have gilt dials? Haven’t taken any macro-photos yet so hard to tell from my eye but surely looks like gilt?

Mazoue · Jan 30, 2020

The serial suggests it was most likely manufactured in 1955.

By gilt dial do you mean that the gold text is not printed but is the underlying metal dial revealed in negative relief, so the text is slightly recessed? I'm not aware that this technique was used on any Polerouter dials.

hejsam · Feb 1, 2020

Mazoue
The serial suggests it was most likely manufactured in 1955.

By gilt dial do you mean that the gold text is not printed but is the underlying metal dial revealed in negative relief, so the text is slightly recessed? I'm not aware that this technique was used on any Polerouter dials.

Yes exactly what I meant with the gilt dial, was that technique only used on the Polarouter?

CafeRacer · Feb 1, 2020

hejsam
Yes exactly what I meant with the gilt dial, was that technique only used on the Polarouter?

the text is printed/raised on all of them as far as i recall.

hejsam · Feb 1, 2020

CafeRacer
the text is printed/raised on all of them as far as i recall.

What I refered to is this
”Dial: Glossy black dial with gilt crosshair and gilt text. Applied gold logo. Original lume plots. Dauphine hands with original lume. Gold marker ring with narrow indices, characteristic of a Polarouter.”

From @Mazoue Polarouter 20214-4 listing:
https://omegaforums.net/threads/universal-geneve-polarouter.108296/

But I was shooting some pictures with the macro-lense today and can see that my Polerouter dial is not gilt as you say!

Mazoue · Feb 1, 2020

I apologise for my lazy shorthand.

I agree that the text on Polerouters is printed and never intended to imply otherwise.

I was simply describing gold coloured or gilt text on a black dial and not a ‘gilt dial’ in the way that the term is used to describe say, 50s and 60s Rolex dials.

owlbear · Feb 15, 2020

Hi, first post! This forum in general and this thread in particular have been very helpful in making my first Polerouter (and first Universal for that matter) purchase, thank you all for sharing.

I've recently acquired what I believe to also be an example of a transitional Pol(a/e)router, in this case a 20217/1. Photos below.

Curiously enough, this watch's serial number matches the highest serial number listed for the second run of 20217/1 Polarouters in the table at https://universalgenevepolerouter.com/reference-tables/reference-table-steel-gold-plated/ - I haven't reached out to the owner of the site yet but would be interested to know the source for this data.

When I purchased the watch I was mainly concerned about the crown, but from looking at this thread I think there's at least a decent chance that it's original. Other than that, the crystal is neither original nor the correct profile, so I'm in the process of rectifying that.

Thanks again everyone for being such a great resource, hope this additional data point helps!

Gav1967 · Feb 15, 2020

O owlbear
Hi, first post! This forum in general and this thread in particular have been very helpful in making my first Polerouter (and first Universal for that matter) purchase, thank you all for sharing.

I've recently acquired what I believe to also be an example of a transitional Pol(a/e)router, in this case a 20217/1. Photos below.

Curiously enough, this watch's serial number matches the highest serial number listed for the second run of 20217/1 Polarouters in the table at https://universalgenevepolerouter.com/reference-tables/reference-table-steel-gold-plated/ - I haven't reached out to the owner of the site yet but would be interested to know the source for this data.

When I purchased the watch I was mainly concerned about the crown, but from looking at this thread I think there's at least a decent chance that it's original. Other than that, the crystal is neither original nor the correct profile, so I'm in the process of rectifying that.

Thanks again everyone for being such a great resource, hope this additional data point helps!

Welcome and congratulations on your new purchase.
You are in the right place. The owner of the site you mention as well as many other knowledgeable guys are all on here and will no doubt chip in

CafeRacer · Feb 15, 2020

O owlbear
Hi, first post! This forum in general and this thread in particular have been very helpful in making my first Polerouter (and first Universal for that matter) purchase, thank you all for sharing.

I've recently acquired what I believe to also be an example of a transitional Pol(a/e)router, in this case a 20217/1. Photos below.

Curiously enough, this watch's serial number matches the highest serial number listed for the second run of 20217/1 Polarouters in the table at https://universalgenevepolerouter.com/reference-tables/reference-table-steel-gold-plated/ - I haven't reached out to the owner of the site yet but would be interested to know the source for this data.

When I purchased the watch I was mainly concerned about the crown, but from looking at this thread I think there's at least a decent chance that it's original. Other than that, the crystal is neither original nor the correct profile, so I'm in the process of rectifying that.

Thanks again everyone for being such a great resource, hope this additional data point helps!

Hi - im the person who built/maintains the site.

The serial in the reference table is just the highest serial found so far from what we are referring to as a 2nd execution polarouter case.
(I recorded your serial from the chrono24 advertisement).
The numbers are not a definitive range, only the range of what has been found so far.
But, you can see the patterns for different references emerge, and it becomes moderately clear the approximate range of each reference and subreference serials. This will become more precise as we find more serials and lock down the ranges with a little more confidence.

Your dial has both Pola and Pole characteristices:
- the lack of outer minute track on the dial (Pola 20217-1);
- the dial says obviously Polerouter (Pole S20217-1).

The UG and Automatic text seems legitimate to my eye.
The Polerouter text looks more or less the correct font, but very thick compared to both the other Pola 2nd ex, and the earliest serial Polerouter S20217-1 i have found (photos are not same resolution, but compare the spaces in the O, P, and R - your example is on the left).

"Transitionals" could be real, or they could just be service replacements, or later replacements.
There are occasionally some Universal Geneve watches with legitimate looking dials that are missing polerouter/polerouter jet / polarouter / polerouter sub etc text (E.g. the "tiffany sub" on ebay at the moment).
The origins of / reasons for these is unknown at present.

In short, unfortunately i have no definitive answer. 😀
Regardless, its a nice looking UG, with an interesting mystery around it to solve. 😀

Mazoue · Feb 15, 2020

One thing we can say for certain is that your crown is correct. It is effectively a late Polarouter crown.

The key difference between your dial and that of the other potential transitional examples in this thread is that it has no outer minute track. This makes it a sort of hybrid dial rather than just a Polerouter dial. All of the other dials are Polerouter dials with no Polarouter characteristics. Is there definitely no sign of there having been an outer minute track?

Whilst I am not completely convinced by the 'Polerouter' text on your dial, it does have a lot similarities with the text on the watch that was sold at WoK posted earlier in this thread.

CafeRacer · Feb 17, 2020

Another one surfaces...
Thick text again, but this time the vertical crosshair line crosses through it all.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/233498040363

Aedaxoo · Feb 25, 2020

something i have noticed is that with almost all polerouter transitionals if we're going to call it that have the cross of the crosshair going through the o or near the o of poler"o"uter while with the normal bumpers the cross is near the r perhaps someone could provide some photo's maybe universal was experimenting with how to print the dials and then decided to sell them? maybe someone is able to check this? anyways i love my transitional ant it looks to be real so i think they came from the factory.

CafeRacer · Jun 4, 2020

Polarouter 20217-5 serial 1691252 just turned up in our discussion group with what I assume is its original dial (characteristic 2nd ex. Pola dial).
One of the latest serials for these references, so does not support the theory of there being a "Transitional" model.