Speedmaster cal. 1861 minute hand jumping early

madmax1 · Dec 5, 2018

Hi there,

I know this issue has been reported several times, however in my case it seems pretty extreme.

The minute hand starts sweeping at ca. 57s 750ms and completes the jump at 59s. The watch is brand new, do you think I should seek service for this? I bought it from an AD a couple of days ago brand new and it comes with all the warranty certificates etc. We have a Omega flagship store in town (Switzerland), I could pass by and ask them.

Otherwise the watch works perfectly fine, so I wonder whether its worth the effort having it opened etc. or there any risks associated with it.

Actually if you stopped the chronometer between 59s and 60s you could not tell how many minutes passed (e.g. 1 or 2). For me personally this issue does not matter that much, but I wonder how the watch can be NASA certified this way and being used in space right now.

Best,
max

watchstick_81 · Dec 5, 2018

madmax1
The minute hand starts sweeping at ca. 57s 750ms and completes the jump at 59s. The watch is brand new, do you think I should seek service for this? I bought it from an AD a couple of days ago brand new and it comes with all the warranty certificates etc. We have a Omega flagship store in town (Switzerland), I could pass by and ask them

Actually if you stopped the chronometer between 59s and 60s you could not tell how many minutes passed (e.g. 1 or 2). For me personally this issue does not matter that much, but I wonder how the watch can be NASA certified this way and being used in space right now.

Well it’s not really used in space nowadays, only as backup. Same with diving watches. And if the minute counter would jump at 61 seconds, you also can’t tell the exact minutes when you would stop at 60.5 seconds. So there’s never a perfect solution unless it would jump at exactly 60 seconds but that’s not how it was made. Ever wondered why it never had hacking seconds? Seem more vital to synchronise watches. Still very robust!

watchstick_81 · Dec 5, 2018

Is that your watch in the video? Because that one is way off but also different than described in your story.

madjestikmoose · Dec 5, 2018

Mine does that. As far as I am aware it's quite common, but fairly easy to 'fix' at a service point.

gdupree · Dec 5, 2018

JVK_watches
So there’s never a perfect solution unless it would jump at exactly 60 seconds but that’s not how it was made.

It is made to jump over at exactly 60 seconds, and it is should do exactly that... It is a common problem, but not one that should be there, or one that many would consider acceptable

@Archer just put this video up demonstrating the results of this adjustment. So, I would say that you should get it adjusted if it bothers you.

there is some more useful info about this in this thread
https://omegaforums.net/threads/new-speedmaster-professional-issue-or-not.75142/

madjestikmoose · Dec 5, 2018

gdupree
It is made to jump over at exactly 60 seconds, and it is should do exactly that... It is a common problem, but not one that should be there, or one that many would consider acceptable

@Archer just put this video up demonstrating the results of this adjustment. So, I would say that you should get it adjusted if it bothers you.

there is some more useful info about this in this thread
https://omegaforums.net/threads/new-speedmaster-professional-issue-or-not.75142/

Interesting read, esp the pictoral explanation. I wonder, do the automatic co-axial movements found in the DSOTM watches do the same thing?

madmax1 · Dec 5, 2018

BenCulverhouse
Mine does that. As far as I am aware it's quite common, but fairly easy to 'fix' at a service point.

Let's see, fortunately I live in Zurich with be Omega main shop close by. I think its just a pity for such a beautiful piece of engineering that the minute hand moves like in a $20 watch...

dennisthemenace · Dec 5, 2018

If the watch is brand new, take it back to the AD and ask for a replacement.
If they try to fob you off by saying it's normal, ask them to bring out another watch to compare with yours.
Being that far out of sync is not acceptable.

valkyrie_rider · Dec 5, 2018

If it was a used watch, I wouldn't mind really.

But in a brand new watch? I would request a replacement.

madmax1 · Dec 6, 2018

So I went to the Omega store today. The sales person showed me another new 1861, which does exactly the same thing as mine. Then she showed me an 1863 with sapphire back, which also had the sweeping movement on the minute hand, but completed the turn exactly at 60secs. So having my watch replaced with another 1861 makes no sense. She said that inaccuracy is due to the different mechanics of the 1861. What do you think?

drhombus24 · Dec 6, 2018

madmax1
So I went to the Omega store today. The sales person showed me another new 1861, which does exactly the same thing as mine. Then she showed me an 1863 with sapphire back, which also had the sweeping movement on the minute hand, but completed the turn exactly at 60secs. So having my watch replaced with another 1861 makes no sense. She said that inaccuracy is due to the different mechanics of the 1861. What do you think?

I’m pretty sure the 1863 is just a decorated version of the 1861. Sounds like you were fed a whole lot of BS

gdupree · Dec 6, 2018

madmax1
So I went to the Omega store today. The sales person showed me another new 1861, which does exactly the same thing as mine. Then she showed me an 1863 with sapphire back, which also had the sweeping movement on the minute hand, but completed the turn exactly at 60secs. So having my watch replaced with another 1861 makes no sense. She said that inaccuracy is due to the different mechanics of the 1861. What do you think?

Wow. What a load... it's the same exact movement.

ChrisN · Dec 6, 2018

madmax1
So I went to the Omega store today. The sales person showed me another new 1861, which does exactly the same thing as mine. Then she showed me an 1863 with sapphire back, which also had the sweeping movement on the minute hand, but completed the turn exactly at 60secs. So having my watch replaced with another 1861 makes no sense. She said that inaccuracy is due to the different mechanics of the 1861. What do you think?

Is this the boutique on Bahnhofstrasse? If so, I believe it's a service centre and might have a watchmaker on site. I know people think that the sales person should know all of this but, it's like asking in a car sales showroom about the crankshaft sensor adjustment on an engine. It doesn't surprise me that you were led to believe that the 1863 is significantly different to the 1861 by the sales person.

Ask to speak to the watchmaker and show him/her the issue. If they also say it is normal, then I would be mightily surprised as neither of the 1861s you've seen meet the Technical Guide from Omega (November 2006) which is available on the internet and used by watchmakers, including me. The on site watchmaker (and any Omega approved watchmaker) will have access to the current technical guide. If you read the last sentence shown below "After fitting the hands, check that the minute recorder hand jumps when the chronograph hand passes over midday".

Out of interest, I have two Speedmasters: An 1861 serviced by me and it exactly follows the technical guide, as I would expect it to...; An 861 serviced a while ago by someone else (it's in my queue) and it is virtually the same.

Regards, Chris

madmax1 · Dec 6, 2018

Alright thanks for the response, I will do that, yes its the Boutique at Bahnhofstrasse. I really wonder how Omega sends the watches out like that. I mean wtf.

Foo2rama · Dec 6, 2018

madmax1
Let's see, fortunately I live in Zurich with be Omega main shop close by. I think its just a pity for such a beautiful piece of engineering that the minute hand moves like in a $20 watch...

You should see what Patek does to this movement to stop even more things similar to this we don’t notice. I can’t find the article though.

Archer · Dec 6, 2018

gdupree
@Archer just put this video up demonstrating the results of this adjustment. So, I would say that you should get it adjusted if it bothers you.

Yes he knows about the video because I posted it in answer to this same question he asked on WUS a couple of days ago...

madmax1
So I went to the Omega store today. The sales person showed me another new 1861, which does exactly the same thing as mine. Then she showed me an 1863 with sapphire back, which also had the sweeping movement on the minute hand, but completed the turn exactly at 60secs. So having my watch replaced with another 1861 makes no sense. She said that inaccuracy is due to the different mechanics of the 1861. What do you think?

Complete nonsense...

As I posted on WUS in response to your question there this seems to be more of a problem lately than I remember it being in the past. There is an adjustment but only for so much, and I'm not sure with how far yours is out that it can be adjusted without having another parameter go out of tolerance. You have to decide how you want to handle it with regards to warranty etc. if you take it to someone who is not an Omega service center.

Cheers, Al

madmax1 · Dec 6, 2018

I went to the Omega boutique again and had about an 45 minute chat with the watchmaker, very interesting. The bottom line is that the clockwork design is pretty old and due to the design most speedmaster´s minute hand will vary around +/- 0.5s, although mine is above that with 0,8s. I tried several models in the shop, seems to be true. That one passes exactly at 60s seems to be sheer coincidence (only one out of 5 models which I tested). However, I noticed that my model is very accurate (2-3 seconds variation per day, measured over 3 days) which is untypical. He also tested it with the timegrapher.

So I could have it replaced, but chances are low that I find such an accurate one again as I understand it. I could also have it sent in and the minute hand adjusted, which I might do some day (warranty is 5 years).

Foo2rama · Dec 6, 2018

madmax1
I went to the Omega boutique again and had about an 45 minute chat with the Technician , very interesting. The bottom line is that the clockwork design is pretty old and due to the design most speedmaster´s minute hand will vary around +/- 0.5s, although mine is above that with 0,8s. I tried several models in the shop, seems to be true. That one passes exactly at 60s seems to be sheer coincidence (only one out of 5 models which I tested). However, I noticed that my model is very accurate (2-3 seconds variation per day, measured over 3 days) which is untypical. He also tested it with the timegrapher.

So I could have it replaced, but chances are low that I find such an accurate one again as I understand it. I could also have it sent in and the minute hand adjusted, which I might do some day (warranty is 5 years).

Technician... not watchmaker fixed it for you.

Also

Personally I’d believe the video proof from a well respected restorer of these watches who’s rebuilt hundreds of these movements over a technician who does minimal work on these a few times a year.

Also the 2-3 seconds over 3 days... I bet you don’t see that in real use. There are to many factors at play, and many if not most will test similarly to yours. My -76 has almost the same measured rates.

Archer · Dec 6, 2018

madmax1
The bottom line is that the clockwork design is pretty old and due to the design most speedmaster´s minute hand will vary around +/- 0.5s, although mine is above that with 0,8s.

Yes the design is very old, but that has nothing to do with how well it's adjusted for the flip. Other than what Chris posted above, there's no other tolerance for this - I've asked people at Omega way higher up the food chain than you spoke to about this. So the person who told you the +/- 0.5 s is acceptable, they are making that tolerance up on the spot.

Accuracy of your watch seems good based on those numbers - balance amplitude is certainly way up there, so surprised it's not rebanking at 337 degrees horizontal.

Cheers, Al

madmax1 · Dec 6, 2018

Thanks for the response Archer.

What shall I do?
1) Nothing
2) Go to the Omega shop -> they will send it to Biel for service, maybe it comes back better (or not..)
3) Get a new one (probably not gonna happen, as this problem wouldn´t be considered a reason for replacement without trying to fix the issue first) Also as you said, its a pretty accurate one, so it would be a pity to change it to one, which might has a +/- 10 sec deviation. Also, unlike suggested above, I wore the watch for 3 consecutive days and it deviated like 2-3 sec each day.
4) Third party technician (no way imho)