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apsm100
··Noob taxpayerDon't know if it was just me, but my Speedy Reduced crown would carve up my wrist unless I wore it on a nato.
Sneaky Breitling...
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerAnyone who cares can easily research the movement and determine that it's modular.
Finding out what movement is in a particular watch is easier now then it used to be, that's for sure. Having said that, many watch companies take great pains not to disclose the movements they use. This is why they, for example, call an ETA 7750 a "Breitling Caliber 13" instead of just calling it a 7750.
The reason all these web sites have popped up to help identify movements that are in watches, like watchbase.com and others, is because companies are not up front with this information in a lot of cases. People who are suggesting there's no intent to hide the origins of the movement are perhaps being a little naïve.
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STANDY
··schizophrenic pizza orderer and watch collectorFinding out what movement is in a particular watch is easier now then it used to be, that's for sure. Having said that, many watch companies take great pains not to disclose the movements they use. This is why they, for example, call an ETA 7750 a "Breitling Caliber 13" instead of just calling it a 7750.
The reason all these web sites have popped up to help identify movements that are in watches, like watchbase.com and others, is because companies are not up front with this information in a lot of cases. People who are suggesting there's no intent to hide the origins of the movement are perhaps being a little naïve.
Agree with this, many time the movement type for newer bespoke brand watches is hidden down a rabbit hole clouded with marketing gobbledygook.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerClearly the wording I have used is upsetting to some - that wasn't really my intent, and I thought this was an interesting way of making something appear to be a thing that it's not, so I thought I'd share.
One can argue to merits or drawbacks of various chronograph designs, and if you search for the term "modular v integrated chronographs" you will get lots of technical information on the differences. I just did that and the first result that popped up for me was an article written by a member here, Ashton Tracy:
https://wornandwound.com/watchmaker...equal-integrated-versus-modular-chronographs/
He goes through the pros and cons, and it's a nice summary. As he mentions in the article, not all watchmakers are willing to work on modular chronographs, and I'm one that won't. People say things like "you can just buy a new DD module" but it's not something that I have ever found to be readily available to purchase. So for me personally, knowing what is inside the watch I'm being asked to service is important, so I know if I can access parts, etc. Many people who email me aren't sure, so if there's a question if it uses a modular chronograph, I usually ask them to send me a photo of the side of the watch with crown and pushers, so know I know that isn't going to be a reliable check any longer.
But if we ignore the pros and cons argument for a minute, I think this is a comment I can fully agree with:
There are plenty of people who own and like watches with modular chronographs, and some have commented in this thread. As I've always said, if you want a watch that has a modular chronograph movement it in that's fine, just understand what it is you are buying, and know that servicing options may be more limited.
In all the threads on this subject (and there are many) it's clear some will eliminate a watch from consideration for having a modular chronograph movement - I don't think that is in question. The thing I've never heard in all those many threads, is people who seek out watches specifically because they use a modular chronograph movement. Yes, people do love the watches that use them, but I've not heard anyone say they chose a watch based on the fact it had that movement, more that they liked the watch and weren't concerned, because they would just send it to Omega anyway (when referring the Speedmaster Reduced models mostly).
So if these are not really movements that people generally go looking for specifically, and there are those that specifically avoid them, I think there's definitely a reasonable argument to be made the Breitling knows this, and were playing to the watch market in general.
Cheers, Al
One can argue to merits or drawbacks of various chronograph designs, and if you search for the term "modular v integrated chronographs" you will get lots of technical information on the differences. I just did that and the first result that popped up for me was an article written by a member here, Ashton Tracy:
https://wornandwound.com/watchmaker...equal-integrated-versus-modular-chronographs/
He goes through the pros and cons, and it's a nice summary. As he mentions in the article, not all watchmakers are willing to work on modular chronographs, and I'm one that won't. People say things like "you can just buy a new DD module" but it's not something that I have ever found to be readily available to purchase. So for me personally, knowing what is inside the watch I'm being asked to service is important, so I know if I can access parts, etc. Many people who email me aren't sure, so if there's a question if it uses a modular chronograph, I usually ask them to send me a photo of the side of the watch with crown and pushers, so know I know that isn't going to be a reliable check any longer.
But if we ignore the pros and cons argument for a minute, I think this is a comment I can fully agree with:
But it seems unlikely that Breitling was not aware that there are watch people who place a higher value on integrated chronographs.
There are plenty of people who own and like watches with modular chronographs, and some have commented in this thread. As I've always said, if you want a watch that has a modular chronograph movement it in that's fine, just understand what it is you are buying, and know that servicing options may be more limited.
In all the threads on this subject (and there are many) it's clear some will eliminate a watch from consideration for having a modular chronograph movement - I don't think that is in question. The thing I've never heard in all those many threads, is people who seek out watches specifically because they use a modular chronograph movement. Yes, people do love the watches that use them, but I've not heard anyone say they chose a watch based on the fact it had that movement, more that they liked the watch and weren't concerned, because they would just send it to Omega anyway (when referring the Speedmaster Reduced models mostly).
So if these are not really movements that people generally go looking for specifically, and there are those that specifically avoid them, I think there's definitely a reasonable argument to be made the Breitling knows this, and were playing to the watch market in general.
Cheers, Al
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerLet’s just be thankfull it didn’t use a paper clip.
I was honestly expecting the pushers to be moved via a linkage and not the crown. It seems an easier solution.
But again as noted above it may not have visually worked to do it that way.
As I was scrolling through the thread initially, I thought the same before I saw what they had actually done. I think the reason this came to mind for me is that I'm working on a Raymond Weil chronograph right now, and although it's a 7753, they are also doing some funky stuff with the movement spacer:
Small levers are used to transfer the motion of the pushers through the spacer, to the movement:
In most cases where this motion is transferred through a large spacer like this, they just use a straight hole and a small round piece of steel, which is simple. This is a little more complex - not nearly as complex as what Breitling has done, which to me is another failure point for the sake of looks or sales...and yet another parts that you won't be able to get when it fails, forcing you back to them for service.
Cheers, Al
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fibonacci
·Out of curiosity, I pulled up some photos of vintage Movado M95s - as I understand it, the first modular chronograph movement. I noticed, somewhat to my surprise after reading this thread, that the crown and pushers seem to be lined up.
I wonder if @Archer has any experience with these, or if, indeed, it's something you'd be willing to service.
(photo credit: Hodinkee)
I wonder if @Archer has any experience with these, or if, indeed, it's something you'd be willing to service.
(photo credit: Hodinkee)
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fibonacci
·The next major modular chronograph movement I'm aware of, the Chrono-matic, went so far as to put the pushers and crown on opposite sides of the case; surely a pioneering act of chronograph skulduggery ☕
(Breitling was one of the developers...)
(Breitling was one of the developers...)
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Archer
··Omega Qualified Watchmaker
No experience with those. No one has ever asked me to service one. I'd have to look into the movement to see what the common issues are and if parts are available to fix those issues before I would agree...on that note...
The next major modular chronograph movement I'm aware of, the Chrono-matic, went so far as to put the pushers and crown on opposite sides of the case
200/1 anyone?
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Scarecrow Boat
·Let’s just be thankfull it didn’t use a paper clip.
From that moment on, I did everything I could to find what happened and boy was that an interesting read.
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Dedalus05
·I am always curious about how people come up with their interesting user names, and I thought I was just being friendly... I asked him "how did you come up with the name Paperclip-boy?" He absolutely lost his shit and cursed the whole forum in a very long rant. Saying TRF has long been a safe place for him but OF is full of nut jobs that only want to watch the world burn.
From that moment on, I did everything I could to find what happened and boy was that an interesting read.
Had to Google it, but curious readers can start here:
https://omegaforums.net/threads/speedmaster-paper-clip-thread.90947/
After reading the back story I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when you innocently asked about his nickname.
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OmegaP99
·The thing I've never heard in all those many threads, is people who seek out watches specifically because they use a modular chronograph movement. Yes, people do love the watches that use them, but I've not heard anyone say they chose a watch based on the fact it had that movement, more that they liked the watch and weren't concerned, because they would just send it to Omega anyway (when referring the Speedmaster Reduced models mostly).
So if these are not really movements that people generally go looking for specifically, and there are those that specifically avoid them,
This is a highly accurate summation.
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abrod520
·Haha funny story... I have been looking at Subs and someone told me "Paperclip-boy" has an attractive sub and included a link to it. That was the first time I had heard that name, so I searched the forum via "member name" and nothing came up. So, I went to his store and texted him about the Sub. I am always curious about how people come up with their interesting user names, and I thought I was just being friendly... I asked him "how did you come up with the name Paperclip-boy?" He absolutely lost his shit and cursed the whole forum in a very long rant. Saying TRF has long been a safe place for him but OF is full of nut jobs that only want to watch the world burn.
From that moment on, I did everything I could to find what happened and boy was that an interesting read.
L M A O
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Foo2rama
··Nowhere near as grumpy as he used to be...Haha funny story... I have been looking at Subs and someone told me "Paperclip-boy" has an attractive sub and included a link to it. That was the first time I had heard that name, so I searched the forum via "member name" and nothing came up. So, I went to his store and texted him about the Sub. I am always curious about how people come up with their interesting user names, and I thought I was just being friendly... I asked him "how did you come up with the name Paperclip-boy?" He absolutely lost his shit and cursed the whole forum in a very long rant. Saying TRF has long been a safe place for him but OF is full of nut jobs that only want to watch the world burn.
From that moment on, I did everything I could to find what happened and boy was that an interesting read.
:::EDIT:::
ahahhahahhahahahahhahhahhahhahahahhahhahahhaahha
:::Edit:::
Still tears in my eyes and I am laughing.
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Lurk41
·Out of curiosity, I pulled up some photos of vintage Movado M95s - as I understand it, the first modular chronograph movement. I noticed, somewhat to my surprise after reading this thread, that the crown and pushers seem to be lined up.
The pushers are aligned because the posts of the chronograph levers go through the barrel bridge, as we can see with those pics
https://www.abellwatchmakers.com/movado-sub-sea-m95.html
(src: https://www.rescapement.com/blog/for-your-reference-the-movado-fb-95m)
Same on the Buren calibers: the levers extend to the plate, so the pushers are not off-centered.
From what I understand, those calibers require the base mouvement to be reworked as the module is not added on top of the plate, but on top of the bridges. Modern modular chronographs have the module added on top of the plate, so no modification is required on the base caliber.
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OmegaP99
·How many people are feverishly opening their watches right now to check for paperclips?
How many movement components can be replaced with paperclips before the watch ceases to function at all?
Is there a chronometer-spec paperclip?
Will eBay authenticators know to look for paperclips?
How many movement components can be replaced with paperclips before the watch ceases to function at all?
Is there a chronometer-spec paperclip?
Will eBay authenticators know to look for paperclips?
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padders
··Oooo subtitles!The Speedsonics were also modular so Omega have nearly as long a history of this kind of shortcut as Heuer, Breitling and Movado.
Actually there are practical differences. Tried to hack it to set the time accurately and wondered why it’s out by a smidge unless you lead or lag the minute hand (I forget which)? Note the jump when you engage the chrono? They are not identical to integrated units. The pusher feel isn’t as nice and the amplitude can drop a lot when the chrono module is running, more so than with many integrated designs.
My experience with modular chronos has not been great. I’ve had a Dynamic and several others too. Lesson learned.
There are just as many of us who don't mind modular chronographs one bit because other than maintenance time, there isn't a practical difference in daily use. I will clarify that I don't love most reduced models because of the snap back, so my modular chrono of choice is the Dynamic chrono. (Photo found online.)
Actually there are practical differences. Tried to hack it to set the time accurately and wondered why it’s out by a smidge unless you lead or lag the minute hand (I forget which)? Note the jump when you engage the chrono? They are not identical to integrated units. The pusher feel isn’t as nice and the amplitude can drop a lot when the chrono module is running, more so than with many integrated designs.
My experience with modular chronos has not been great. I’ve had a Dynamic and several others too. Lesson learned.
Edited:
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OmegaP99
·The pusher feel isn’t as nice and the amplitude can drop a lot when the chrono module is running, more so than with many integrated designs.
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Foo2rama
··Nowhere near as grumpy as he used to be...As I was scrolling through the thread initially, I thought the same before I saw what they had actually done. I think the reason this came to mind for me is that I'm working on a Raymond Weil chronograph right now, and although it's a 7753, they are also doing some funky stuff with the movement spacer:
Small levers are used to transfer the motion of the pushers through the spacer, to the movement:
In most cases where this motion is transferred through a large spacer like this, they just use a straight hole and a small round piece of steel, which is simple. This is a little more complex - not nearly as complex as what Breitling has done, which to me is another failure point for the sake of looks or sales...and yet another parts that you won't be able to get when it fails, forcing you back to them for service.
Cheers, Al
So what is that pusher opposite the crown, I know some 7753's have a date 'pusher' there, but not an actually hand pushable one, that seems a bit problematic to me. I know the ones I have seen are toothpick pushers.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerThanks!
So what is that pusher opposite the crown, I know some 7753's have a date 'pusher' there, but not an actually hand pushable one, that seems a bit problematic to me. I know the ones I have seen are toothpick pushers.
It's for the quick date change, as that's not done through the crown on these. Yes normally this would be a corrector that would require a pin to push, but this one is a normal pusher - it does have a screw down feature to prevent accidental actuation.
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kippyk
·The next major modular chronograph movement I'm aware of, the Chrono-matic, went so far as to put the pushers and crown on opposite sides of the case; surely a pioneering act of chronograph skulduggery ☕
(Breitling was one of the developers...)
I thought Breitling put the crown on the opposite side of the pushers initially to indicate it was a self-winding movement. It was a marketing decision when the first self-winding chronos came out.