OT: The struggles of McLaren-Honda

dsio
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I think Alonso will stick around, its clearly a good chassis given what he's able to do with in it even in the engine situation they're in.

This year's car is a Peter Prodromou evolved 2014 design, next year will be Peter's first clean slate design for McLaren after his amazing success heading aero work at Red Bull under Newey.

Honda seem to have reliability and heat rejection sorted out, and are aware of where the weaknesses are, in the compressor and ERS. Over winter when they get access to all those engine tokens I think they'll make a massive improvement on both those aspects. Another interesting thing with the Honda is that in Singapore its trap speeds are consistently higher than Red Bull / Toro Rosso, which makes the Honda claims of a power advantage over Renault make sense.

If it is just ERS and a compressor fix among some other enhancements they can definitely catch up given Honda's massive depth of talent, and in a better chassis next year it could be a genuine contender. Honda definitely don't want to go through this year again, and now that the problems are identified and data is plentiful they'll throw everything at it.
 
Calibre11
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Another disappointing race weekend. The hardest part is the lack of real progress- sure, Australia was a disaster, but if it was just a learning curve and there were signs of improvement it would be easier to understand...for example, good pace but unreliable.

I would have thought the car/ engine is as good as its ever going to be in 2015 and it's time to write the year off, treat it as an extended testing session and get things right for 2016
 
dsio
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Calibre11 D.C
Another disappointing race weekend. The hardest part is the lack of real progress- sure, Australia was a disaster, but if it was just a learning curve and there were signs of improvement it would be easier to understand...for example, good pace but unreliable.

I would have thought the car/ engine is as good as its ever going to be in 2015 and it's time to write the year off, treat it as an extended testing session and get things right for 2016
I know its just heartbreaking, double gearbox failure though, at least its a new and non-Honda related issue :|
 
Hubert
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http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/jenson-button-to-announce-retirement-from-formula-one-a-1732293377
Jenson Button To Announce Retirement From Formula One At Suzuka: Report
By: Stef Schrader
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Driver Jenson Button is expected to announce an end to his sixteen-season career in Formula One sometime before this weekend’s race at Suzuka, reports The Telegraph. Button had been in negotiations with McLaren, but will likely bow out instead of spend another season in the uncompetitive car.

Rumors on where he will go hint at an Anthony Davidson-like split between the World Endurance Championship and media work, possibly even as a host on the revamped Top Gear. According to The Telegraph, Button has been in talks with Porsche’s LMP1-class WEC team in the past, where former Red Bull driver Mark Webber also ended up after leaving F1. Button has also been linked to rallycross, as his father John was a successful rallycross driver in the seventies.




Rumor: F1's Jenson Button May Become The Most Dapper Man On Top Gear
Fair warning: this rumor comes via The Daily Mail, which is about as reliable a source as that guy…Read more

McLaren’s option to renew Button’s contract for 2016 will expire in the next month. The Telegraph reports that the relationship between Button and team chairman Ron Dennis isn’t as friendly as it used to be, which likely explains some of the candid statements Button has been making to the media lately. Button only narrowly edged out Kevin Magnussen for his drive this year, as Dennis publicly favored Magnussen for the drive.

Recent comments Button made to ESPN after last weekend’s Singapore Grand Prix suggest that Button is simply over it all:

My head knows but my mouth and tongue doesn’t know. The joy of being in the car is only there if you’re fighting at the front, because you feel like you’re achieving something.

If you’re fighting near the back, you’re driving an F1 car, but you can easily get joy driving something else. The joy you get is from competing. It’s about fighting at the front. It’s about the possibility of standing on top of the podium. That’s the joy of F1.

Meanwhile, Magnussen and fellow McLaren Young Driver Programme protege Stoffel Vandoorne are both more than happy to take Button’s seat.

ESPN also reports that an announcement coming up soon. Button told them:

I have made that decision, that’s the important thing. It is always nice to make an announcement when you are at your home grand prix, but I don’t know what’s happening yet.

There are a lot of meetings in Japan, Ron Dennis and Eric Boullier will be there. I’m sure there will be a lot of meetings at the headquarters.

Whatever’s done is done. If Button leaves, it certainly opens up another seat on the grid during a silly season where many drivers are staying put in hopes of nabbing a seat with Ferrari or one of the more successful teams.

McLaren can’t lay claim to success anymore. They’re one of the most historic names in Formula One, but their new Honda power units have been - to put it far too nicely - a work in progress at best.

When Button leaves, they’ll likely have to settle for a driver with less experience (such as Magnussen or Vandoorne) or someone who doesn’t bring a prior world driver’s championship to the table. For the team’s sake, let’s hope that either most of the development work is done in terms of getting the Honda power units up to speed for next year, or that current driver and two-time world driver’s champion Fernando Alonso is sticking around for at least another year.

As for the timing, why is he announcing this at the Japanese Grand Prix? Button’s wife, Jessica Michibata, is Japanese. The couple has a huge following in Japan and treat it almost like a second home race.

Photo credit: Getty Images
 
Pell031
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I'd love to see Button in both WEC and TopGear.

As for McLaren, boy I sure hope they get this sorted next year. this is beyond sad
 
Calibre11
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Listening to Alonso on the radio today I think it's pretty clear that he's looking at ways of getting out of his contract. He's too calculating to have said what he did today ("GP2 Engine...embarrassing") at Honda's own circuit and not have a plan in mind
 
Hubert
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http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/mclaren-boss-ron-dennis-says-both-alonso-and-button-wil-1733235305
McLaren Boss Ron Dennis Says Both Alonso And Button Will Return For 2016
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McLaren Formula One team boss Ron Dennis just dropped a bomb on British broadcaster Martin Brundle after the Japanese Grand Prix. When Brundle asked, “Are [Jenson] Button and [Fernando] Alonso in your primary two cars next year?” on the Sky Sports broadcast, Dennis responded “Yes!”

It took a little while for Brundle to ask that clarifying question, however, as Dennis apparently likes to dance around this answer almost as much as Button does.

“We have Fernando contracted for three years and Jenson contracted for two,” said Dennis on the broadcast.

“We did have an option to terminate Jenson’s contract, but he had a two-year contract,” continued Dennis. “I told him earlier in the week that that wasn’t going to happen, and I think he was pleased. Maybe I should have told him a bit sooner?”

Brundle had to confirm what Dennis was sort of saying in his rambling, roundabout answer for sure, so he interrupted Brundle’s answer to ask point-blank if Dennis had let something slip.

“So that’s breaking news - Jenson is driving for McLaren next year?” asked Brundle.

“The contract is completely intact and going to be unchanged, and I’ve spoken to Jenson about it and he’s happy,” responded Dennis. “I don’t want to - I never discuss contractual matters if I can avoid it, and even acknowledging the fact it was an option is more than I would normally go. But the drivers are all contracted, and that’s the end of it.”

That’s when Brundle asked if the 2016 lineup was for-sure going to be Alonso and Button, to which a stuttering Dennis who looked about like he’d been caught by his mom with his hand in the cookie jar replied, “Yes! Yes. Yes.”

Jenson Button has been particularly coy about his plans for 2016, even going so far as to rebuke three-time F1 world champion Niki Lauda for pretending to know what he’s up to next year.

Both Button and Alonso have been openly unhappy with the McLaren Honda’s lack of performance this year. Alonso at once point during the Japanese Grand Prix compared the Honda power unit to that of a lower-series GP2 car’s over the team radio. While it would be nice to think that both drivers are sticking around, most fans would love to see the two past world champions in cars that better match their driving abilities.

Will both Button and Alonso stay faithful to the contract with McLaren as Dennis thinks they will, or will they look to break that contract in search of greener pastures? Whatever they decide, we’ll find out soon.
 
Calibre11
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By the way, despite Alonso's complaints, he drove a superb race yesterday. Yes, they were smashed on the straights, but looked more competitive than I expected.

Still think this story has a few twists ahead.
 
Pell031
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i keep wondering if it's Dennis who shouldn't be the one considered as a possible candidate to not be returning to the team....this bit of lethargy started before Honda and is embarrassingly bad for this team. The Honda part has certainly exacerbated the issue but they couldn't keep up with Williams last year with the same engine.

Safe to assume the lump will be improved next year, the chassis better well be.
 
dsio
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There's been a lot of turnover and changing of direction even aside from the Honda engine and driver lineup, the aero chief was replaced with the new guy from Red Bull, Peter Prodromou who was effectively Adrian Newey's right hand man during the RB domination years.

The 2014 MP4-29 was a confused car using some odd aero concepts like the infamous butterfly rear suspension:

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The MP4-30 was a continuation and evolution of the MP4-29 as Peter came into the picture far too late to redesign it from scratch, so he's been gradually applying his aero philosophy (quite draggy but very high downforce) bit by bit as can be seen by the sheer volume of new parts fitted from the short nose to rear floor to front wing elements which are very Red Bull like. Ironically the entire emphasis on tight rear packaging that lead to the Honda engine issues was brought about by Peter's predecessor, and he only walked into it in around October 2014.

Because of his preference for a draggy but much higher downforce car, he probably would have much preferred Honda to simply go balls out making the power they needed to overcome that drag as much as possible, rather than worrying about following the Williams approach of creating a very slippery low downforce car that's a demon on straights.

Peter did the vast majority of the hands on work rather than Newey, who had taken a step back in recent years so he definitely can compete with the Red Bull team on his own, the question is how are they going to go about it? The MP4-31 is no doubt underway, and is the first completely blank canvas Prodromou designed car for McLaren, given that its likely to be even more draggy and in need of even more power, and Honda I have no doubt are banging out engine after engine at Sakura to get everything out of their 2016 design. It could be that Peter's been able to work with Honda to allow them more breathing room packaging and layout wise since suffocating that engine was never his idea to begin with.

Given the chassis is already competitive even if the engine is awful, and its a compromised design to begin with, next year could be very interesting if they have both the power and the aero to go with it. Key question is whether Red Bull / Toro Rosso get the Ferrari "A" engine or if they're stuck on the 2015 / "B" spec version. The head of Fiat group was talking about the 2016 Ferrari engine being an absolute monster even compared to the much improved 2015, so Honda will have their work cut out for them.
 
dsio
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TheKomoman TheKomoman
"Honda misery set to continue in 2016"

Not exactly a surprise but it's still sad to see. It does sound as if they have identified the biggest (or perhaps more aptly, smallest) item to address at least. First step to fixing a problem is identifying it,right? RIGHT??? 😕

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/exclusive-honda-misery-set-to-continue-into-2016/
I'd say they've known for quite some time, of the current engine manufacturers, Ferrari is still a small sub-brand of Fiat-Chrysler, Mercedes high performance powertrains is still the old Ilmor business in the UK, not Germany, and Renault is, well Renault. Honda is definitely capable of getting back on top, its just a matter of whether the regulations allow them to.

The more frightening news this week, Bernie Ecclestone could be standing down at the end of this year...

As much as Bernie is a vicious, manipulative, fascist dictator, he's the best dictator we could ask for, and if the F1 strategy group has proven anything, its that consensus decision making and democracy doesn't work in this sport. The only way the circus can be run is by one man, with his foot firmly on the throat of every team boss in equal measure, maybe Ross Brawn could manage it but I can't think of many others.
 
TheKomoman
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dsio dsio
A rather fascinating total breakdown of the current McLaren Honda V6 power unit and where the weaknesses are that will be addressed in 2016:

http://en.f1i.com/magazine/29541-exclusive-pictures-of-the-honda-power-unit.html

Really a good read!

Thanks, that really was a good read. It's truly amazing how reliable these contraptions are given their complexity. Even with Honda's struggles it's still a remarkable piece of engineering and speaks volumes about the quality of work done by Mercedes.
 
dsio
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Practice 1 results for USA GP were interesting, Fernando was nearly 7 tenths up on Jenson's best time with the brand new Honda engine that they were saying had exceeded their expectations from this latest upgrade. While Fernando is often considered the quicker driver, Jensen is still the best wet weather runner in the sport and tends to be on balance even quicker than Fernando when it rains, and he's actively trying to provide a performance comparison this weekend between new and old engines by doing his best against his teammate.

Apparently the new exhaust headers (equal length separate pipes rather than the old log style) and combustion chamber changes made at least 20hp more in Russia and can be improved on further as mapping isn't optimal yet.

dtHyzxT.jpg
 
Hubert
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Congratulations to Lewis Hamilton for his well deserved 3rd World Championship and, on his own account, the best moment of his life.
 
Hubert
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Yes, much improvement for McLaren-Honda, especially for Button who was quick to nab the 6th place from Alonso, who suffered unexpected engine vibration on the finishing laps.
 
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