Longines 3T(Tre Tacche) coming up on Phillips HK - BEWARE

SWmania · May 12, 2025

First, the photos.

"""
Movement No 5’539’287
Case No 1’660, further stamped 67

Delivered with Longines Extract from the Archives dated 28th November 2019,
confirming the present watch was sold on 3rd December 1937 to the company Ostersetzer, Longines’ agent for Italy.
"""

Unfortunately, Longines Archives confirmed this watch originally came with WHITE Dial.

Although I believe this dial is possibly a correct configuration for a 35mm 3T, this is another one of those frankens or whatever you may call it, very common in Longines 3T's.
Also, the dial condition is very poor as well, and damage marks around the edge of the dial suggest this dial originally came in a smaller watch, and was swapped later on.

Below is a capture of the email from Longines heritage department.
====================================================

qiushui · May 14, 2025

Information is very important. Thank you for providing all of this. This is beneficial for longines' fans to make the right choice.

GuiltunderGlass · May 14, 2025

Why would they not include that info with the extract???

cchen · May 14, 2025

GuiltunderGlass
Why would they not include that info with the extract???

Longines' archive dept has continually unearthed new information as they find more records. The physical archive cert was probably issued before they had the dial color information.

J_pilot · May 14, 2025

GuiltunderGlass
Why would they not include that info with the extract???

The information likely existed in the records when the pictured extract was issued, but it is only in the last year or so that Longines has ceased issuing extracts for watches with current appearances that do not match the written descriptions in the archive. The pictured extract, being of the older style, was issued before this changeover and under the old rules. At any rate, neither old nor new-style extract typically includes detail on dial configuration unless there is some particularly noteworthy surviving dial characteristic noted in the archive that they deem worthy of mention.

At any rate, thanks for the heads up on this example! A lot of sketchy examples popping up these days without auction disclosure.

DirtyDozen12 · May 14, 2025

@SWmania Thanks for sharing this information! As you mention, this seems to be a very common practice in 35 mm tre tacches.

SWmania · May 17, 2025

cchen
Longines' archive dept has continually unearthed new information as they find more records. The physical archive cert was probably issued before they had the dial color information.

They used to issue archives all the time, with just the information on the case number + movement number matching.

so an Extract from the Archives by Longines is just that, a proof of "CASE NUMBER" and "MVT NUMBER" matching.
nothing more.

Dial is a different story altogether : you need to check on your own. At least the old extracts don't guarantee anything on the watch.

PLUS, it could be possible that an extract could be obtained in its original form, AND THEN the dial swapped, as the extract DOES NOT mention the type of DIAL.

GuiltunderGlass
Why would they not include that info with the extract???

slowjms · May 19, 2025

thanks for the info, just curious how can you send a mail to Longines and Longines replied? Did you do that recently?

SWmania · May 22, 2025

slowjms
thanks for the info, just curious how can you send a mail to Longines and Longines replied? Did you do that recently?

Yes, send a mail to the longines heritage department. However, they may not answer some questions. It depends.

slowjms · May 23, 2025

SWmania
Yes, send a mail to the longines heritage department. However, they may not answer some questions. It depends.

Normally, they would reply Dear xxx (with a customer name)

SWmania · May 24, 2025

And it sold for 55k HKD (before premium)

Which is.. a lot, for a put together watch with a dial in poor condition, albeit in attractive layout.

As expected to be honest.

liquidsongbird · May 24, 2025

Crazy that this sort of stuff happens. If you found out this easily, I trust anyone who was selling could as well, right?

SWmania · May 25, 2025

liquidsongbird
Crazy that this sort of stuff happens. If you found out this easily, I trust anyone who was selling could as well, right?

Yes, I'm quite sure.

But swaps on these early 3T's happen so often, it's basically just a matter of it being a sum of its parts.

just price it as case/movement (matching which would have gotten you an extract just a few years ago) + the dial combined

Maybe someday you stumble upon a case/movement combination which Longines heritage dept confirms it originally had a black dial...

and say if it had a bad redial or a different dial... then plop the black dial in, and you would have something of a "matching" watch...

This is why vintage 3T's are such a minefield, I start to stay away from it altogether...

But the case and some dial designs are very beautiful, I guess you just have to live with it if you want to collect this criteria.

Or Really original examples, "wholesome" examples should command a premium, especially if Longines can confirm the dial type as well.
Not only the dial color, but say the configuration of the dial. If that could be proven it would be amazing, but I don't think they usually have this info most cases. Color is mostly what they have.

skand · Jul 10, 2025

Aside from the dial color, everything else seems consistent. The dial is flat, comes from a 35mm case, and hasn't been repainted. Do you have any suspicions about the dial's origin? The first thing that comes to mind is a transplant from a Sei Tacche watch. Did Sei Tacche watches have dials like this?

SWmania · Jul 10, 2025

skand
Aside from the dial color, everything else seems consistent. The dial is flat, comes from a 35mm case, and hasn't been repainted. Do you have any suspicions about the dial's origin? The first thing that comes to mind is a transplant from a Sei Tacche watch. Did Sei Tacche watches have dials like this?

My suspicion is that this dial did not come from a 35mm 3T case.
possibility would be similar period non 3T cases, probably about 32-33mm in size.

These are the primo candidates for dial swapping, since the larger case size makes it much more valuable, obviously...
Sei Tacche is a little bit later period.
I would say dial period is contemporary with the case, just the size does not match.

Here is proof: you can slightly make out the outline of where the original watch case's rehaut would have touched the dial, and made a mark on the dial...
The original case definately had a slightly smaller dial opening.

Very similar style dial in a 32mm similar period case:

Although this one is different that it has different style numbers, especially "open 9" is most distinguishable

Deafboy · Jul 10, 2025

SWmania
My suspicion is that this dial did not come from a 35mm 3T case.
possibility would be similar period non 3T cases, probably about 32-33mm in size.

These are the primo candidates for dial swapping, since the larger case size makes it much more valuable, obviously...
Sei Tacche is a little bit later period.
I would say dial period is contemporary with the case, just the size does not match.

Here is proof: you can slightly make out the outline of where the original watch case's rehaut would have touched the dial, and made a mark on the dial...
The original case definately had a slightly smaller dial opening.

Very similar style dial in a 32mm similar period case:

Although this one is different that it has different style numbers, especially "open 9" is most distinguishable

Thanks for the pictures. It supports what the OP mentioned.

skand · Jul 11, 2025

SWmania
My suspicion is that this dial did not come from a 35mm 3T case.
possibility would be similar period non 3T cases, probably about 32-33mm in size.

These are the primo candidates for dial swapping, since the larger case size makes it much more valuable, obviously...
Sei Tacche is a little bit later period.
I would say dial period is contemporary with the case, just the size does not match.

Here is proof: you can slightly make out the outline of where the original watch case's rehaut would have touched the dial, and made a mark on the dial...
The original case definately had a slightly smaller dial opening.

Very similar style dial in a 32mm similar period case:

Although this one is different that it has different style numbers, especially "open 9" is most distinguishable

Yes, you're right, the larger the case, the more expensive the watch. I bought a Tre Tacche Dial in a Sei Tacche case because it was 1.5 mm larger. The photo shows the outline of the original case. Tre Tacche and Sei Tache are a very risky subject, but these watches are so tempting that people buy them, even knowing they're folding watches.

vujen · Jul 12, 2025

90% of important Longines watches had a dial swap in the past.
99% of mushroom pushers 13zn, for example - they were build as "waterproof" and of course the patent was not so good, this is the reason why they replaced with 3T 13zn basically 2 years later.
These are important watches and important watches "need" to be with a nice dial, this is the reason why basically everything is now already swapped.

The same thing happened years before with Rolex. It happens with Omega Speedmasters, etc

It's like having a Ferrari 250 GTO with a missing part, if you find this part in another car, of course you'll use it to fix the most valuable car.

The problem is that Longines now decided to "become an active part in the game", and instead of building nice new watches (their current watches are s**t) they are basically contradicting themself, well their previous extracts.

IMHO this is the dumbest thing to do. But well, who am I.

SWmania · Jul 12, 2025

vujen
90% of important Longines watches had a dial swap in the past.
99% of mushroom pushers 13zn, for example - they were build as "waterproof" and of course the patent was not so good, this is the reason why they replaced with 3T 13zn basically 2 years later.
These are important watches and important watches "need" to be with a nice dial, this is the reason why basically everything is now already swapped.

The same thing happened years before with Rolex. It happens with Omega Speedmasters, etc

It's like having a Ferrari 250 GTO with a missing part, if you find this part in another car, of course you'll use it to fix the most valuable car.

The problem is that Longines now decided to "become an active part in the game", and instead of building nice new watches (their current watches are s**t) they are basically contradicting themself, well their previous extracts.

IMHO this is the dumbest thing to do. But well, who am I.

Very good point, thanks for the opinion.

AFAIK Rolex DOES NOT know which dials were supposed to be in which cases, for example the case for Paul Newman dials.
So even if they tried very hard to figure out if a watch with a PN dial originally came with one, they would have no way of finding it out.

However Longines has a (relatively) deep extensive archive record, like Patek.
I think that being transparent and disclosing archive information can only do more good than harm..
Although it is true that propably 90% of important longines dials have had swaps, the remaining 10% will become that much more meaningful, like the true "barn finds".

Also on your comparison with Ferrari 250 GTOs -
I don't know much about cars, but....
Speedmasters and Rolex sports models - i feel like they are much less in variety compared to Longines, the production "batch" of each identical example was in much higher numbers for Rolex and Omega - hence it is much easier to swap a dial even while maintaining the original configuration.
I think that this is the reason that makes Longines collecting much more difficult, and niche.

vujen · Jul 12, 2025

Of course mine was just a comparison between important "things" (watches and cars) that have a different nature.

At no level anyway, I think it's a good move to put "new rules" in a thing (watches collecting) that was born when none of these companies cared about heritage (this is the reason why some companies don't have archives, some don't care, some just started to do something with their infos) and that basically grow up only with the passion of collectors.

Plus, I think it's quite naif to put rules on items that after 90 years were trades possibly hundreds of times.

I try to explain myself better:
If you buy a 3T in 2017 with its extract, or without it (and you ask it later), you buy a watch that was "correct", now in 2025 you ask Longines an extract and they said it's not.
So they are not reliable anymore, from my point of view.

Because the first thing we as collectors are thinking is: this is a built watch, put together from parts.
But maybe this watch was fixed 50 years ago from a local watchmaker, maybe this watch was serviced in Longines after 1 year of its original sale because water entered in it, maybe the original owner asked for a dial change, who knows. We definitely don't know. The problem is that now, a Longines watch without extract looks like a zero value watch. And I think this is not the correct way to see these items.

The only thing we know is that NOW Longines is saying that their old extracts are no longer valid. So basically they are saying they are not reliable anymore.
Question is: who tells us that 2025 extracts will be valid in 2030, at this point?

I think they are trying to make some money with people passion, instead of trying to build something new, they are putting themself as "referee", even if for 30-40 years of watches collecting, they didn't care at all.
I guess new model sales are not growing up so much....