Compur 30

Woops · Jun 10, 2019

I know that this has come up before but does anyone know with any certainty where the thirty in ‘Compur 30’ comes from? I haven’t found a conclusive explanation on OF or anywhere else (including Sala).

I find the most plausible reason speculated for the ‘30’ is that these particular watches came with cals 381 or 386 inside, movements typically supplied to other brands (UG mostly keeping cals 281, 285 etc in-house...Zenith cal 146 excepted). Thus the ‘30’ on the dial may be seen as a way to differentiate these ‘rarer’ cal 3XX watches from other models within the UG product line up of the time.

Hopefully demonstrating that I have tried to solve this puzzle on my own here are some other wild theories I have heard put forward;

‘30’ refers to the 30mm size of some early pre-1940 Compur cases
‘30’ refers to 1930 when Compur development commenced, with the model eventually going on sale a few years later
‘30’ refers to 30 rubies inside cal 386
‘30’ refers to 30m diving depth (!!!)

I would love to hear anyone else’s thoughts on this.

Larry S · Jun 10, 2019

Mark020 · Jun 10, 2019

Interesting. I'd say option C

Larry S · Jun 10, 2019

Mark020
Interesting. I'd say option C

I was just reading a discussion of bearing count and I’d concur.

ELV web · Jun 10, 2019

Dibs the HJ case one. And I think you can strike the diving theory out, these things won’t even last through tap water rinsing.

Woops · Jun 10, 2019

ELV web
Dibs the HJ case one. And I think you can strike the diving theory out, these things won’t even last through tap water rinsing.

Agreed. Maybe for once with UG this is one possibility we definitely can rule out.

ELV I have allocated the next available spot to you in the dibs queue for the HJ Compur despite the fact you left this teaser for me in the archives:

ELV web
I think Noodia asked the same question before, and there was an answer some where in this forum.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/compur-30.34907/#post-393756

I can confirm that after 22 pages reading I found nothing on the forum!

ELV web · Jun 10, 2019

Woops
Agreed. Maybe for once with UG this is one possibility we definitely can rule out.

ELV I have allocated the next available spot to you in the dibs queue for the HJ Compur despite the fact you left this teaser for me in the archives:

https://omegaforums.net/threads/compur-30.34907/#post-393756

I can confirm that after 22 pages reading I found nothing on the forum!

Actually he only mentioned he was also puzzled by it.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/my-universal-geneve-collection.17754/page-3#post-220329

My bad.

bgrisso · Mar 15, 2021

A few other musings on this subject...........

1) in looking through Sala i noticed the height of cal 386 is slightly higher than 285, not sure why?

2) on the parts pages for cal 285 if you look at the small print in the upper right corner there is a note that says 386=14''' Universal 30

not sure what this means, we already know the size (14''') is the same as 285, but not sure what Universal 30 suggests. Also slightly odd is that on the corresponding pages for cal 281, it does not have this note for cal 381, even though cal 381 is used in a (much smaller) number of Compur 30 examples.

Lastly, is it worth throwing Compax 30 into the mix and considering them together with Compur 30, or are they a different beast? Do we know which calibers are used in Compax 30 ??

CafeRacer · Mar 15, 2021

Could it be referring to a 30 hour power reserve?

vujen · Mar 15, 2021

Or - and I won't be surprised if the explanation would be so simple - to the thickness difference between 285 and 385/6 movements!

6,35mm (386) - 6,05mm (285) = 0,30mm --> 30!

maybe a way to differenciate immediately watches powered with 385/6 movements (probably considered less valuable cause a bit thicker at that time?)

Lurk41 · Mar 15, 2021

PR is apparently 36 hours on those calibers, so for sure it is not related.

@vujen You may be right! I performed a quick search: all the compax/compur 30 I can found on the Internet have 38x calibers 😀

@bgrisso flat hairspring on 38x vs Breguet hairspring on 28x. I guess it affected a bit the height. Do not ask me why, as I have no idea 😁

bgrisso · Mar 15, 2021

Interesting ideas. The .3mm height difference falls apart with the cal 381, which is the same exactly height as the cal 281 (5.5mm). However the 381 is much more rarely used than the 386 in Compur 30 as far as I can tell.

From my limited research it appears the 386 is consistently used in Compax 30 ? Does anyone know if the cal 381 is ever used in any examples of Compax 30 ?

It seems an incredibly obscure thing (.3mm height difference in the movement due to the hairspring) to market to consumers by printing on the dial ? It would be like taking some other arbitrary technical fact about the difference between the cal 285 and cal 386 (maybe the 386 has 3 extra parts in the movement or whatever) and branding all those dials as Compur 3. Why would anyone care?

On the other hand, I don't have any better ideas. It seems clear that it must have something to do with the cal 38X series movements.

Woops · Mar 16, 2021

Fascinating stuff as always and some pretty cool ideas so far.

I have only owned the one Compur 30 pictured at the top of this page and it did indeed contain a cal 386 inside. The yellow gold case on that piece was noticeably thin with spindly wire lugs and felt feather-light in hand. With this sample group of all of one watch, I also wondered whether Compur 30 potentially denoted a short-lived budget diffusion line for UG at the time, in step with the austere war years and immediately beyond. A more affordable line of watches (containing a thicker and perhaps less desirable cal 386 inside, with less refined finishing, in cheaper cases made of chrome and thinner gold) would surely have found many buyers in the cash-strapped 1940s.

However, there are obvious problems with this theory too. The main one is that we have all seen spectacular specimens of Compur 30s (for example gilt black dials in gorgeous cases, to take just one example) that would seem to rule out ‘30’ designating an inferior product from a materials or design perspective. Secondly, if the Compur 30s were much cheaper to buy back then we would expect to see way more of them now, not less, than we do of the original ‘Compur’s (which just isn’t the case).

The answer to this riddle is surely somewhere in that 386 calibre and it feels like we are almost there.

vujen · Mar 16, 2021

Fashinations for black gilt dials is something modern. At that time, elegance and luxury were a nice and little gold case, with a bright white dial. That explains why usually black dials are rarer than white ones - not only in UG watches. Market, at that time, required mostly white dials.

Speaking about the abundance or not of the "30" models: we have to keep in mind that 285s were the standard production for UG company. Subsequently - maybe to increase sales in some areas or for some new markets - the idea of cheaper watches. As correctly said, 38x are thicker movements. People came from pocket watches age, so the goal was to reduce sizes. The littler, the thinner the movement, the best the watch. So 38x watches offered the same "UG experience" (we'd say today) at a minor and more affordable price.

Carlton-Browne · Mar 16, 2021

I also think that if UG were going to start turning out budget watches they'd put Uweco or possibly Berthoud on the dial - is it me or do these sub-brands have a higher proportion of plated base-metal cases

vujen · Mar 16, 2021

Maybe a cheaper watch UG branded sells more than a UWECO that is basically saying "you can't afford the original one!"
I mean, people's brain always worked in the same way. 😁

I can't not relate the fact that these two calibers are one 0,30mm thinner than the other. And that on the dial of the thicker there's written exactly that difference.

bgrisso · Mar 16, 2021

The two Compur 30s that I had were 1) a gold jeanneret (non faceted) case with fab suisse dial and inner dust cover and 2) a Spillman, neither of which seem like they are budget options. Granted it's a small sample size, but I'm not sure the discount theory fits. If they all appeared in chrome cases, or in 14K instead of 18K, maybe that would be more of a clue.

The other issue is that regardless of the extra .3mm difference in mvmt thickness, I doubt this contributed to any increased thickness in the case. The 386 spillman I had was exactly the same thickness as the 285 spillman case, and I suspect the gold case jeanneret likewise compared to a similar 285 regular Compur. I would guess all the cases could house any of the various UG caliber thickness (at least for the specific model line for which they are intended), it was more the diameter that was variable, but that's just a guess. (As a side note it would be an interesting study to know if, for example a case housing a cal 287 Compax, could also handle the increased thickness of say, a cal 287 Tri Compax, but that is entirely different thread).

I'm just struggling to imagine that market meeting, where all the UG staff is sitting around and they say, I know, let's do an line of Compur using the 38X series mvmts, it won't change the case thickness at all, but that extra .3mm is so crucial, we will print it on the dial. It doesn't make any sense. If slimness was valued, I could see putting the thinnest movement height on the dial as a point of pride, but why would you advertise a whole group of watches as being .3mm thicker. Take a muscle car for example, a mustang has a 5.0 (liter) V8 badge on exterior to denote such engines. Or you can get it in a smaller size engine without the 5.0 badge. In our situation, that would be like making all the 5.0 liter cars without any kind of badging at all (regular Compur) and then only put a special badging on the 3.0 liter V6 (Compur 30). It seems like the exact opposite of what you are trying to do with marketing in general.

Anyhow, again I don't have any other theories, and this one is interesting, I'm just trying to take an impartial look at it.

martinc · Mar 16, 2021

bgrisso
Interesting ideas. The .3mm height difference falls apart with the cal 381, which is the same exactly height as the cal 281 (5.5mm). However the 381 is much more rarely used than the 386 in Compur 30 as far as I can tell.

From my limited research it appears the 386 is consistently used in Compax 30 ? Does anyone know if the cal 381 is ever used in any examples of Compax 30 ?

It seems an incredibly obscure thing (.3mm height difference in the movement due to the hairspring) to market to consumers by printing on the dial ? It would be like taking some other arbitrary technical fact about the difference between the cal 285 and cal 386 (maybe the 386 has 3 extra parts in the movement or whatever) and branding all those dials as Compur 3. Why would anyone care?

On the other hand, I don't have any better ideas. It seems clear that it must have something to do with the cal 38X series movements.

A UG Compax 30 with cal. 381 inside - ref. 22213:

bgrisso · Mar 16, 2021

martinc
A UG Compax 30 with cal. 381 inside - ref. 22213:

great, thanks for that example. Interesting to see the 30 placed up top next to UG and not with the Compax. In the parts diagram I posted above they also call it "Universal 30". I wonder if the 30 is more associated with "Universal Geneve" than it is with the Compur or Compax name? Although the majority of examples do put it down below next to the model name.

😕 📖

TheRealMe · Mar 16, 2021

Since I just got a Compur 30, I figure I should post a pic. The activity on this thread is fortunate, since I was just wondering the same thing.