Anyone here interested in primitive and/or traditional archery?

Professor · Jun 1, 2021

Bumping this for a good reason.
I ordered a dozen new carbon fiber arrows and was surprised to find that arrows today aren't very well suited for traditional bows. The nocks are oriented differently putting the white fletching either straight up or straight down rather than the traditional white feather 90 degrees from the centerline of the bow.
Am I correct in thinking modern arrow rests, especially those of compound bows, are optimized for the non traditional nocks?
I sent those arrows back for a refund, not because of the nocks, which I can rotate or replace with some effort, but because the description said Total Length 32 inches rather than shaft alone being 32 inches which gave an overall length near 34 inches, with the broadheads I ordered they would exceed 34 inches. Not suited for my maximum draw length.
I ordered a half dozen of the same brand with nominal 30 inch length which should make things balance out properly.
I could use a shorter arrow but I like the option of being able to draw back to my ear if maximum power is needed.
I learned to shoot using a home made 5'9" aprox 90# long bow with "clothyard" shafts (39" oal).

Archer · Jun 1, 2021

Were these arrows advertised as being for a specific bow type? I've never bought "pre-made" arrows before, so that's a little foreign to me as I always assembled my own arrows, even back in the 70's. No one in a pro shop was going to take the same care that I did assembling arrows, so this is what everyone who competes that I know does.*

Feathers aren't a common fletching I'm used to working with, even though I did shoot them indoors for a couple of seasons, before just sticking with my regular X10's. Vanes of one type or another are the most common thing you will see, and usually "Spin Wings" made of Mylar, like this for Olympic target archery:

This is one of my old arrows I took a photo of this morning - excuse the dust. This is a typical recurve arrow rest set-up:

The type of rest an indexing of the nock to the fletching isn't related to the type of bow as much as it's related to shooting with fingers or a mechanical release. Of course no one really shoots a recurve with a release, so releases are specific to compounds I suppose. But if you are at all familiar with the concept of the archer's paradox, this is why shooting with fingers or a release makes a difference. Shooting with fingers will create an oscillation in the arrow that shooting with a release doesn't. It's best illustrated in slow motion, so this is some slow motion footage of me shooting when I was at the US Olympic Training center many years ago - the very last clip from over my shoulder shows how the string moving around my fingers starts the arrow oscillating:

The arrow has to flex around the rest and riser on the way out of the bow, and it continues to oscillate like this at it flies. There are two stationary node points on the arrow that determine it's trajectory to the target. A lot of arrow construction details (how they are cut, etc.) are centered around these mode points and controlling where they are on the arrow shaft. So having the "cock feather" as it was traditionally called, pointing away from the riser was important to assist with arrow clearance.

With a mechanical release, the arrow doesn't have this oscillation, because the rope or jaws of the release let the string go much more cleanly than even the best archer shooting fingers can. This is one reason why a compound is so much easier to shoot.

So an arrow rest set-up on a compound is very different, end here is one example:

Many of these rests drop away when the arrow is released, but you can see the indexing of the fletching in this photo is what you suggested - cock feather (vane) is pointing straight up.

Cheers, Al

* - it's a ritual every night before the start of a tournament to sit in a hotel room with your team mates stripping and fletching all your arrows for the next day. With the Spin Wings you drew a line on the arrow as a guide using a fletching jig, and then you laid down double sided tape to attach the vanes to the arrows, and then wrapped the tip and tail of each set of vanes with black tape. This only takes a few minutes if you have done thousands as I have. These aren't terribly robust, so you would fletch your arrows all the time as they were easily damaged in a group of arrows at the target. I recall once they came out with a different shape Spin Wing called Spin Wing Elite or something like that. I was at US Nationals and a lot of top guys were shooting these, but I hadn't made the switch yet. Everyone was raving about how good they were, but then the wind shifted and there was a head wind coming straight at you on the shooting line, and suddenly everyone's groups were much bigger who were shooting these. Guys were frantically stripping arrows and fletching them all up and down the line between ends, changing back to the type you see on my arrow above. No one was using them at the next tournament I went to...not sure if they even make them anymore.

Awetaylor · Jun 1, 2021

Does a bow and arrow made out of bamboo, string, and paper count?

My parents laughed while they watched me making my makeshift bow (I was only 11 at the time), however, I'd never seen my dad move so quick to rip something out of my hands after the arrow wizzed 30m into the distance. Our garden was adjacent to a public park and the tennis courts were just on the other side of the fence.

You see, I sharpened the ends for aerodynamics... and because it was cool!

Professor · Jun 1, 2021

Archer
Were these arrows advertised as being for a specific bow type?

No, only stated to be for compound or recurve.

I ordered carbon fiber arrows because I might also try these with the compound bow I mentioned buying at a salvage store years ago. It fires arrows at a very high velocity and was bending the aluminum arrows I used at the time even though the backstop was only packed with dense foam rubber. I managed to straighten the bent arrows by rolling them between slabs of walnut.
If worse came to worst I could just use the new arrows for the compound bow only. I've been planning to give the compound bow to a friend who lost his compound bow in a house fire.
That compound bow has no modern style arrow rest, the rizer is much like that of my older Bear recurve bow.

Kind of a silly reason but I was drawn to these arrows by a section in the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy where Legolas is forced to scavenge Uruk Hai arrows from the battle field, having fired off all the Elf arrows he had brought with him. Unlike the common crude Orc arrows the Uruk Hai arrows of a very strong black wood were of very high quality for a mass produced item and very consistent. Tolkien seems to have had some knowledge of archery, especially the state of the art pre WW2.

I watched a recent video on archery techniques where a respected modern bow hunting authority expressed doubt of stories of long range hits using older style bows saying 200 yard shots were doubtful even with modern equipment. Yet IIRC the Boone and Crockett record for a long range one shot kill on a big horn ram was done half a century ago with a Osage Orange longbow of 125 lb pull at 350 yards. The hunter fired from one mountain peak to another so there was no doubt of the range.

Anyway I'm not interested in competition shooting, only in maintaining a skill level that would allow me to use a bow, especially a simple home made bow and arrows, for hunting in a survival scenario.
Men have been using bows to put food on the table since before there were tables.

My eldest brother was the best natural archer I've seen or even heard of, he never used sights of any kind, no arm guard or finger tabs much less a release. He didn't even seem to aim at all. As he brought the bow up , he drew and released in one smooth motion, his arrows were always dead on target. He was also very good at golf and wing shooting.

PS
I've heard it said that one can shoot better with a poor quality bow using high quality arrows than with the best bow they make if using low quality arrows.
I've also read that Japanese archers first had to make five arrows per day for years before being allowed to even touch a bow.

Archer · Jun 1, 2021

Professor
I watched a recent video on archery techniques where a respected modern bow hunting authority expressed doubt of stories of long range hits using older style bows saying 200 yard shots were doubtful even with modern equipment. Yet IIRC the Boone and Crockett record for a long range one shot kill on a big horn ram was done half a century ago with a Osage Orange longbow of 125 lb pull at 350 yards. The hunter fired from one mountain peak to another so there was no doubt of the range.

Well, it's an interesting idea, but to me shooting an arrow to kill an animal at such distances, where the chance of wounding is high, is not ethical hunting IMO. The fact is most bow hunting is done at very short range, so the archery skills needed to hunt consist of being able to hit something the size of a dinner plate at 20 yards, and you are good to go. It's often done from a tree stand, and depending on where you live, can be with bait.

But in terms of longer range shooting there is Clout Archery:

Clout archery - Wikipedia

Depending on the equipment and specific round you are shooting, it is done up to 180 m (approx. 200 yards).

When setting accuracy for hunting aside, there is also flight archery, which is similar to those long distance gold driving competitions you see, where you have to keep it in a certain area, but other than that you are shooting for distance.

Flight Archery: Forever | Bow International (bow-international.com)

Various types of bows that can reach over a kilometer for a hand held bow, and foot bows can go even more...

Professor · Jun 1, 2021

Archer
so the archery skills needed to hunt consist of being able to hit something the size of a dinner plate at 20 yards, and you are good to go.

Not really sufficient for small game, such as Wabbits for example. My brother could take a running rabbit easily at 50 feet and snap shoot a sitting bunny in his widdle head at the same distance bringing the bow on target from a full at ease in the blink of an eye.
Getting close to that level is my goal, not replicating the feats of Robin Hood.

I should probably try out a much lighter bow for my purposes. In the Carolinas American Indians preferred a light bow of around 25# pull and light reed arrows with tiny heads for small game. Their war bows were more like 60# pull.
Practicing with my 35# and 45# bows is more for building muscle and muscle memory than in expectation of using them on anything but targets.

PS
Got the broad heads I ordered ahead of schedule. Very deadly looking heads and sturdy enough to do great damage without incurring any if bones are struck. More like a Medieval war arrow head in design, sharp enough but no fancy razor edges. Made for deep penetration more that slicing flesh.
Not really barbed, not going to fall out but not requiring butchery to remove.
I think these would do the deed nicely on game up to 200 pounds even from my light bows.

Archer · Jun 2, 2021

Professor
Not really sufficient for small game, such as Wabbits for example.

Was referring to hunting deer, which is what most here use a bow for.

Professor
PS
Got the broad heads I ordered ahead of schedule. Very deadly looking heads and sturdy enough to do great damage without incurring any if bones are struck. More like a Medieval war arrow head in design, sharp enough but no fancy razor edges. Made for deep penetration more that slicing flesh.
Not really barbed, not going to fall out but not requiring butchery to remove.
I think these would do the deed nicely on game up to 200 pounds even from my light bows.

Well, those look terribly inefficient at cutting, so hopefully you have good tracking skills, because you will need them.

dukeskd · Jun 2, 2021

Wow. Does bamboo crack due to humidity changes?

Walrus · Jun 2, 2021

Darn one of my coworkers is a 23 year old female who took archery lessons as she instructed kids at summer camp for her first job. She was asking me about archery ranges, I used to use a compound bow and get a little into various bows but never achieved any great skill at it it was just a fun thing to do. We got to talking as she was looking for an archery range. By chance I pass one a lot as I make my rounds at work, we went together one day after work and she was like Robin Hood. Darn girl couldn’t miss. It all worked out though I got my ass beat to a pulp but it was fun, hadn’t shot a bow in years. The last few flings I seemed to be hitting my stride a bit but for me it’s not like riding a bike, at least for me. Funny thing is I didn’t hear any comments at work, I figured I was due for some ridicule so hats off to her. Of course it’s only been a couple days I’m pretty sure I’ll be getting some emails or other type of torment.

Professor · Jun 2, 2021

Archer
Was referring to hunting deer, which is what most here use a bow for.

I have several air rifles that would be better suited for squirrel but around here small game includes Groundhog , Turkey and some rather large non native rabbits. The Tennessee species of rabbit is unusually small compared to the more common invasive species of rabbits. The Tennessee species is also very well camouflaged. Both rare and hard to see if you did find one.

Archer
Well, those look terribly inefficient at cutting, so hopefully you have good tracking skills, because you will need them.

Perhaps but while deadly even from a light bow heads like these should not destroy a lot of good meat of Ground hog and Turkey sized game.
Most of the razor head type points look flimsy to me. I doubt they would survive intact if they struck substantial bone or in event of a miss contact with wood or hard ground. They would suffer damage even if fired at a decent backstop and quickly chew up a back stop.
An arrow you can practice with improves chances of a good hit in the field.

As I mentioned I was thinking along the lines of hunting in a survival situation, where replacement blades or complete heads would not be available.
Awhile back I ran across testing of primitive stone arrowheads compared to modern hunting heads and the primitive heads proved highly effective. The heads I chose are a compromise. They are better suited to the most common wild game and unlikely to destroy valuable meat or be destroyed by contact with ground or vegetation in event of a miss or passing through a animal.
A one size fits all approach.

Archer · Jun 2, 2021

Professor
Perhaps but while deadly even from a light bow heads like these should not destroy a lot of good meat of Ground hog and Turkey sized game.

You said these would be suitable up to 200 pound game, so either you have very large groundhogs and turkeys, or you will be wounding larger animals with these, and causing unnecessary suffering.

I have nothing against hunting if it’s done ethically, but these are not suitable for large game as you have suggested. Arrows kill by the animal bleeding out, and for a deer or similar sized animal these would not work well at all. If you do plan to hunt larger animals I suggest you get yourself properly equipped.

Cheers, Al

Professor · Jun 2, 2021

Archer
You said these would be suitable up to 200 pound game, so either you have very large groundhogs and turkeys, or you will be wounding larger animals with these, and causing unnecessary suffering.

You are still not understanding the meaning of "Survival" situations.
An empty belly is not concerned that the prey takes two minutes to die rather than five minutes. In one instance the animal dies from exsanguination while in the other it dies from internal bleeding.

Archer · Jun 2, 2021

Professor
You are still not understanding the meaning of "Survival" situations.

I understand it perfectly, but I doubt you are in a survival situation posting on the internet...

SkunkPrince · Jun 2, 2021

Archer
I understand it perfectly, but I doubt you are in a survival situation posting on the internet...

As frequently happens, @Archer says a smart thing. In a survival situation, there are things you do to get food. One thing you don't do is risk your expendables. Sure, your fancy bow and broadheads. Or your M14 and 5000 rounds.

The first thing you do is find your food using whatever you can find in nature. The best thing you can find to live after the apocalypse? A 1930s Boy Scout manual.

Professor · Jun 3, 2021

Archer
I understand it perfectly, but I doubt you are in a survival situation posting on the internet...

So in your world there is zero need to prepare for the worst even in the middle of a worldwide pandemic involving a virus that is mutating at a rate unseen before and increasing tension between nuclear armed nations while the internet is under constant siege which has evolved into major threats to national infrastructures everywhere?

SkunkPrince
The best thing you can find to live after the apocalypse? A 1930s Boy Scout manual.

I still have mine from the 50's.
Years ago I ran across scans of the earliest Boy Scout manuals. Its surprising how much space they devoted to the more martial arts including archery.

PS
I have yet to find anyone who can carve an M14 out of a sapling. On the other hand the Moutanards kept the Vietnamese off their turf for generations using only handmade cross bows.

tikkathree · Jun 3, 2021

Archer
I understand it perfectly, but I doubt you are in a survival situation posting on the internet...

tough times you know, tough times. Slow servers, patchy wifi, Windows 10.....😉

Professor · Jun 3, 2021

How many times have we read of people stranded by aircraft crashes in wilderness regions?

Archer · Jun 3, 2021

Professor
So in your world there is zero need to prepare for the worst even in the middle of a worldwide pandemic involving a virus that is mutating at a rate unseen before and increasing tension between nuclear armed nations while the internet is under constant siege which has evolved into major threats to national infrastructures everywhere?

If by "prepare" you mean buying ineffective broadheads, no.

Professor
How many times have we read of people stranded by aircraft crashes in wilderness regions?

So you are taking your bow, arrows, and broadheads on every flight you take, just in case? Or are the people who crash land near you your prey?

S.H. · Jun 3, 2021

Professor
So in your world there is zero need to prepare for the worst even in the middle of a worldwide pandemic involving a virus that is mutating at a rate unseen before and increasing tension between nuclear armed nations while the internet is under constant siege which has evolved into major threats to national infrastructures everywhere?

Aren't you somewhat overdramatic here? Viruses mutate, yes, and this one is nothing like the black plague.

Thinking that you will live off the land with a bow and arrows sure is fun in theory but a cabbage patch or any well tended garden is more practical IMHO.

SkunkPrince · Jun 3, 2021

S.H.
Thinking that you will live off the land with a bow and arrows sure is fun in theory but a cabbage patch or any well tended garden is more practical IMHO.

And fishing, snaring, deadfalls... and migrating your butt to a place it doesn't snow. 😁