650 cleaning - on the bench.

Finally getting back to some watchmaking. The cleaning machine more or less made operational. And the parts run through it. I may have cleaned these parts when I took the mainspring barrel out, although the broken main spring may have caused me to delay further disassembly till this weekend.


Now I have to psyche myself up to put it back together. This is one tiny movement.

-j

12.4mm diameter!

I've got a caliber 684 (17.5mm) in my project queue, every time I get it out and look at it I think of some other chore that's always more urgent.

I broke the incablock spring on the balance. Then broke the one on the doner movement. Ironic as my avatar is one of these. I have some spares, but the closest one sprung off somewhere. (probably got stuck in my hair.) I ordered some more on eBay. If I could could get the spring one out of the bottom of the donor movement, I might get this back together.

Probably not the best watch to practice on after an 18 year hiatus.

-j

Mine is in an American case EE7705R/311 14K with 8 diamonds. (Why I did not want to give it to the hardware store guy.) I went through my other watches. The other cocktail watch is a De Ville. These were my 'opera watches.' These watches also got to visit the factory/museum (There was a similar saphette on display.)

Surprisingly the only other ladies movement I can find is a ladymatic.

I have been looking online for more as these are under rated, but I do not have the cash flow to pay the going rate of 120 or so.

Probably should have done one of the benruses first, but this has been blocking me for nearly 18 years, waiting for a mainspring. I need to get it done before I do the next one ...

Rodico is your freind.

-j

The good news is the new eBay spring came today.

The bad news is the eBay seller cheated me. This is what I ordered



This is what I received. A single incablock spring in a pill bottle:



Normally I would not have minded this, But this is outright blatent fraud. To list something as new in sealed packaging, then ship something completly different. I was looking forward to getting the packaging as I have quite a bit of these and in that container I have a place to keep it.

Even worse is the listing is still up (now stating one sold and 1 remaining) The item description shows the front and back of the packaging with multiple views. Why show the back of the package, if it is going to be parted out. The listing does not show a single item removed or the packaging opened. The text in the listing is just the factory description. How do I even know this is the item I ordered. It does look correct. But I will not know until I fit it into the watch.

Now I technically have to wait 7 days before I can leave a negative review on the seller. Something I do not like doing. I may want to order from this seller again. Ironically in all this I have learned they are also offering the click I need, which could get the donor movement working, which is actually part 640-1104 as 640 is the base caliber for these tiny movements. They do have a lot of parts listed(9,572) and most of these are probably slow movers. There are good chances that I might buy from them again (although after this they may refuse to sell to me.) I also see that they have the 330-1327 balance assembly (at a steep price) Which I will want if I ever decide to revive the 330 movement I have, although there was a time when I could have purchaced the whole watch for that price.

Really all I am asking is for the seller to update the descriptions to be more accurate and up front about the costs. Not to advertise something as new or nos in a sealed package, then break the package apart to pad their pockets. If they could take the time to put the spring in a bottle, surely they could have taken the time to photograph it and written things clearly in the description. I see they have the same 'One part' weasle words on other items that are screw assortments.

I have 90 more post before I can add this seller to the reveiws section, But I would reccomend being wary when ordering from volunteertime which seems to be an estate or consignment jobber. Granted they did ship quickly and the pakaging is fine for such a small item.

I have a bunch of stuff, I do not like, need, or use, I would not mind selling (so I can buy what I want) But this kind of nonsense really is what has turned me off from the hobby. Sellers like this also give a bad rep to others who might be willing to sell similar parts.

-j

Normally I would feel this way, and did with a camera lens adapter, which was a different silkscreen from the one pictured, then again they listed 141 in stock.

What I did not like about this one is the attitude. That it is my fault. Like I am the one trying to defraud the seller. An honest seller would have quickly made good in hopes of future business.

I probably made an honest mistake, but I checked the listing multiple times, and did not see anything fishy. There was nothing in the description stating one item part piece or what ever the weasel word is. There were multiple views of a single object in the listing. I took that to mean that I was purchasing the object photographed. There was nothing in the description other than the eBay boilerplate which stated this was a new item.

There are a lot of sales where there is a low price next to the movement, then a drop down list of single parts. Mostly from sketchy foreign sellers.

While I do not like that type listing, it does make sense, although that seems to be a lot of extra work to sell something. Such listings are useful as they often have one of the tech sheets, which to me are as valuable as anything. Plus as posted in the T17 thread, these are a tool I did not have in the 1990s and I can now sort of trace parts, which have been collecting dust for decades. These tech sheets are also useful to see how a box of associated parts might fit together. I am really looking forward to seeing if I can put that valjoux 203 tripple date moon together. So it is possible I may need other incabloc springs. Although whomever disassembled it put the balance back on the movement. The problem was clearly a broken mainspring, which should be easy to source.

Will be interesting to see what the other eBay bid I did for incabloc springs produces. Those are shipping from the UK and the auction shows three packages. (One package appears to have been opened.) That should arrive next week.

So in effect I am taking a risk on such things as I attempt to navigates parts availability. There are also good chances I am going to break more incabloc springs in other movements, as I recall having done so before. I do have a nice bestfit assortment in the glass vials which is mostly the jewels. I also seem to have a large collection of jewels.

It probably does not help that I am having trouble to get the 650 train bridge to line up. The escape wheel keeps jumping when the next wheel is placed. One would think that these parts having been together for 60 years would do so the same. But I did remove all the dirt, and there could be some wear in the holes. The pinions look good under the microscope (another tool I did not have 20 some years ago.) I demaged everything but there still seems to be some sort of stiction happening.

I am also learning to work with fingercots, something I did not do before. These I cut off from old latex gloves. Surprisingly they do work.

The rodico sort of helps (It is the only way I can keep the movement from jumping out of the holder) There just does not seem to be a clean way to nudge the third wheel without knocking the 4th wheel and escapement out of their holes. The 4th wheel wants to balance on a long arbor, like a clock, so the whole thing tends to act like an inverted pendulum.

Tried turning it over, then the escape wheel wants to wobble on it's long arbor and will not stay still enough for the whole movement to drop onto it.

Been a long day so will give it another try tomorrow.

-j

It took all week to get this far in the re-assembly.

I had to use a lot of rodico to make little pillars that would keep the train wheels from turning and jumping out of the pivots. The tricky part was placing this so it could be removed once the bridge was installed.

Found that the optivisers did not have enough magnification, So I had to use the eyeglass loupe and the USB microscope. With that much magnification, there is not much depth of field.

The end results was success. Qualified. I got it back together and the escape wheel would not lock in. Inspection showed that the top pivot had disappeared. Not sure when that happened. So I had to clean and use the escape wheel from the donor movement. That pretty much will prevent any practical restoration of the donor movement, which is now missing a click, incabloc and escape wheel. Why it is a donor movement.

I do have a lathe (I think I have 5 lathes.) I also have attachments for re-pivoting. On the other hand I am not real sure I would want to replace the pivot on something this small. Drilling out the arbor would be an exercise in futility.

Still there is a good feeling when the wheel train turns, and turns freely. So satisfying to feel the reduction flow through installed parts.

I keep making silly beginner/out of practice mistakes. Well it has taken 18 years to get this far ...

-j

And we now have the motion works and the keyless works re installed. Starting to look like a watch again.

I got my old low res digital microscope out. The shinny surfaces tend to overload the sensor.

-j

I actually did get a proper holder for the chronographs. I want to get this one watch of the way first. This repair was suppose to be a simple mainspring replacement...


I have a set of the nesting rings, but this movement does not quite fit the smallest one. I could have made a holder machining, lasercutting or 3d printing something. That then becomes a major project. For me this is a hobby. I have a lot of major projects. Most of these involve using 3D modeling CAD and advanced programing.

Navigating the material house websites and the online shopping malls is not always the easiest thing. As I was denied formal training (being told I was too old) I had to learn from those who were willing to teach on the side, who had to learn from others outside the temple. Or I can read what are now 70 to 120 or more year old books. Some of the reprints (no make that actual books) I have on my shelf date back to the 18th century.

This is why I am glad there is a place like this here. So I can learn or possibly un-learn habits and misconceptions.

I would love to know if there is a specific holder for a watch this small. Please feel free to share the part number. I got to visit some of the Beregeron factory and the outlet store in the 1990s. So when ever I have been able to afford the upgrade of a tool from my old 1920s/1950s era tools which I acquired I do so. A lot of the Bergeron stuff is attractively priced. But one has to know what it is in order to seek it out.

The adjustable holders does not go down to under 6L. The guy on You tube did get the smaller adjustable. I think then resorted to the rodico. Of course a lot of that is for simple entertainment.

I do have a love hate relation with rodico. A lot of the old tools I have have dried hardened bits of it which I have had to scrape off.

I also know enough that I would never attempt to work on my speedmaster myself. And while I did do the constellations, I can see why one really needs an AD who does a few of these a day, and can time the proper and bring them back to rating. Timegraphers are a subject unto themself, but I am not there yet.

In the month I have been on these forums, there has been no recommended AD in the San Francisco bay area. Others have asked as well. 90 percent of my inquires seem to fade away. Perhaps some of this has to do with time differences as many are awake when others are asleep.

-j

Thanks for the information. I used to go to Otto Frei in the 1990s. You would have to walk into a steel cage as they were in a not so great part of Oakland, which is across the bay from San Francisco. I have been looking at their website a bit.

Also been following the AWCI thread. I think I knew this as AWI. Sort of a trade group that printed a nice magazine. I think they did classes then. I suspect with the passing on of the old guard, attitudes have changed a lot.

Edit: I see they still sell the yellow movement rings.

-j

... and the new mainspring and barrel bridge are back in. Together again for the first time in some 18 or so years. The click is from the donor movement. Perhaps someday the old one will turn up.

Next up is the balance, which is going to be tricky as the eBay seller messed up the part order. So I am going to attempt to take the incabloc spring one from the donor movement. I can not really swap the balance bridge, as I want to keep the correct import stamp on it.

-j

It is ticking. And a shot of the case back just before the case is closed.

-j

Just the prod I need to start on my little ladies movement 👍.